first, i think the concept and implementation of timestop rocks. its really a refreshing and unique spell.
however, what was the point of time stop? were PC's (let alone enchanters) in need of a power upgrade? it certainly doesnt reduce the amount of typing you have to do. It does ease spellups when your asking one enchanter to globe/haste/scale/blur a group, but so wouldve a second enchanter or necro or elemtanlist ect...
and before folks start saying it doesnt make you anymore powerful, ill say this.
1. your able to cast more spells in a shorter period of time meaning each of those spells will fade later in the fight than previously. it also frees you up to cast offensive in early combat instead of hastes or blurs or spell x. no matter how you look at it, it lets you cast more spells. since casting spells is never a + for mobs, its obviously a + for PC's.
2. zone groups which would've had difficult fully spelling up can now get fully spelled up with one enchanter instead of finding it necessary to bring along a second person just to ease spellups (be it enchanter, necro/lich, elementalist, illusionist whatever). now its hard to say whether bringing another hitter > than another spellup class or an invoker vs enchanter vs other class x, but it gives you more ability to tailor the group for ultimate spankage. that is again more power.
3. the time saved is > than the time spent memming the time stop. this means zones get done faster. this effect is somewhat offset by the fact that you are prolly casting more spells since you can and have to mem those additional spells, however, your casting them to prevent death which if you prevent death saves you even more time.
4. ca 'timestop',ca 'relocate' or other long casting time spell. gate gate gate gate gate?
while the time you save is somewhat lessened in needing to mem an extra spell, and meming timestop does keep ya from memming one extra scale (it is 10th circle right?) i think its pretty undeniable that it actually made players more powerful. is that what we were after? or did someone just think it was a cool idea?
if we are worried about the eq in the game is getting sick, we should be equally concerned about the spells.
time stop, what was the point?
Enchanters get crapped on by everybody....So now they don't have to type 200 words a minute AND get to stone/blur/etc the other people in the group to keep us alive more.... while getting to cast fun stuff themselves so everybody can have more fun.....why is this bad again? :P
[This message has been edited by torkur (edited 05-12-2002).]
[This message has been edited by torkur (edited 05-12-2002).]
hey Sylv- time stop means you type faster, not slower.
No longer does an enchanter have 5*'s of cast time in which to type out the next spell to cast. On the contrary, it has to be typed out instantly now.
If I quest time stop, it will be for my own personal benefit to get rid of the annoyance on casting identify, enchant weapon, relocate, or other spells with similar insanely long chant times. Or to spell people up after being ressed. :-)
I maintain that enchanters are too powerful for their own good. What's the problem with enchanters, really? They can do so damn much that it requires many many more times the typing and attention than ANY other class I have ever played.
True story playin' enchanter in a zone. I get thirsty, look away from my monitor and take away my hands from the keys for a period of about 20 seconds to sip some coke, and look back and someone in the group has died that wouldn't have if I'd been paying perfect attention. I wonder if this contributes to the enchanter burnout I've been seeing a HELL of a lot lately? I've seen many enchanters, including myself, not want to play enchanter much anymore once they have a high-level alt that they can play instead. I know that unless an enchanter is required for the group, I'll be getting my alt, just cause it's so much fun not to have to work so damn hard the entire zone long.
I've been approached by a couple people that have asked me why I play an enchanter at all, and that it's so unrewarding that they never would touch the class. I feel that in some ways, the class is so fundamentally different from any other class in the game. Just look at what every single other class does. What are their prime functions? 90% of the classes focus on doing damage. Then you have clerics (to a lesser extent shamans) that focus on healing. Then you have enchanters, that focus on ALL the protective spells everyone in the group needs.
Just my observations, I know I'd have a different manner of changing enchanters to make them fun than the current gods have, but I'm not really worried about that. I'll play the class as they've created, if I get bored with it I'll play something else, it's no big deal. By the way, I'd be more than willing to talk to gods about possible ideas for the enchanter class.
And people that are still reading this far, thanks for listenin'. ;-)
-Xeb, sitting bored in class.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
No longer does an enchanter have 5*'s of cast time in which to type out the next spell to cast. On the contrary, it has to be typed out instantly now.
If I quest time stop, it will be for my own personal benefit to get rid of the annoyance on casting identify, enchant weapon, relocate, or other spells with similar insanely long chant times. Or to spell people up after being ressed. :-)
I maintain that enchanters are too powerful for their own good. What's the problem with enchanters, really? They can do so damn much that it requires many many more times the typing and attention than ANY other class I have ever played.
True story playin' enchanter in a zone. I get thirsty, look away from my monitor and take away my hands from the keys for a period of about 20 seconds to sip some coke, and look back and someone in the group has died that wouldn't have if I'd been paying perfect attention. I wonder if this contributes to the enchanter burnout I've been seeing a HELL of a lot lately? I've seen many enchanters, including myself, not want to play enchanter much anymore once they have a high-level alt that they can play instead. I know that unless an enchanter is required for the group, I'll be getting my alt, just cause it's so much fun not to have to work so damn hard the entire zone long.
I've been approached by a couple people that have asked me why I play an enchanter at all, and that it's so unrewarding that they never would touch the class. I feel that in some ways, the class is so fundamentally different from any other class in the game. Just look at what every single other class does. What are their prime functions? 90% of the classes focus on doing damage. Then you have clerics (to a lesser extent shamans) that focus on healing. Then you have enchanters, that focus on ALL the protective spells everyone in the group needs.
Just my observations, I know I'd have a different manner of changing enchanters to make them fun than the current gods have, but I'm not really worried about that. I'll play the class as they've created, if I get bored with it I'll play something else, it's no big deal. By the way, I'd be more than willing to talk to gods about possible ideas for the enchanter class.
And people that are still reading this far, thanks for listenin'. ;-)
-Xeb, sitting bored in class.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
I hear what yer sayin X-man, as a Shaman, I am a utility class with a big focus on ghealing. However, I'm a vitter, a stoner, and have prots, armor and bless, detects too.
You have no choice in casting many of your prot stuff, we get the secondaries, so far I haven't had a big issue with it, as most of it is prefight. The infight stoning/viting I often have my vit/stone targets trigger tell to me 2x that its out. This isn't as fast as glancing, but I tend to be paying more attention to the group as a whole on my prim responsibility of ghealing.
I happen to really enjoy my role, but can see how you could end up w/ some burnout, especially if you don't use a mud client and haven't programmed short cuts and tab completions. Those have been a major lifesaver for me.
Toplack
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You have no choice in casting many of your prot stuff, we get the secondaries, so far I haven't had a big issue with it, as most of it is prefight. The infight stoning/viting I often have my vit/stone targets trigger tell to me 2x that its out. This isn't as fast as glancing, but I tend to be paying more attention to the group as a whole on my prim responsibility of ghealing.
I happen to really enjoy my role, but can see how you could end up w/ some burnout, especially if you don't use a mud client and haven't programmed short cuts and tab completions. Those have been a major lifesaver for me.
Toplack
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Heh, any one-dimensional class is busted. You should be happy if you have many responsibilities. The problem is they took a very diverse class, sorcerer, that had protective spells and offensive spells, and split the two types of spells into two different classes. All they did was create two one dimensional classes. An uber offensive class, and an uber protective class. But neither is very interesting imho.
Illusionist is a great class because its most like the sorcerer of old.. we have a protective spell (displace), a few interesting utility spells, and some average offense. Perfect.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
Illusionist is a great class because its most like the sorcerer of old.. we have a protective spell (displace), a few interesting utility spells, and some average offense. Perfect.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
Agreed, Corth.
My vision for what would make enchanters awesome and less 1-dimensional would be to yank 1-2 of the "spellup" spells, and add more to the whole concept of status effect spells (ray, slowness, enervate, blind, etc.)
How about yanking globe from enchanters, giving elementalists/necros a longer duration globe spell, and then give enchanters a spell that JUST prevents stone/dscales from chipping, but does nothing to remove the damage taken from shield?
Other suggestions I'd have: (this would be useful if time stop was a lot harder to get, imo) How about making time stop a group affect? Maybe a good idea, maybe a shitty one, but this might balance out if enchanters didn't have globe per se anymore.
How about yanking haste from chanters, and increasing the duration for elementalist/necro haste?
I know these seem like huge downgrades to the enchanter class. I'm planning to take away *gasp* 2 of the most highly used chanter spells! However, if this gives enchanters a less one-dimensional role in groups, it will definitely improve them, after people get OVER the typical flaming after downgrades.
At this point, possibly the status-effect spells enchanters have could be looked at, and maybe the chance of hitting upped _slightly_.
Enchanters aren't a one-dimensional class, it's just that half their spells are useful and half of them aren't worth memming, much less casting. Balancing this out is really the way to provide a long-term enjoyability adjustment. At the same time, it firms up elementalists & necros' role in groups a little more.
-Xebes, who doesn't shy away from the controversial.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
My vision for what would make enchanters awesome and less 1-dimensional would be to yank 1-2 of the "spellup" spells, and add more to the whole concept of status effect spells (ray, slowness, enervate, blind, etc.)
How about yanking globe from enchanters, giving elementalists/necros a longer duration globe spell, and then give enchanters a spell that JUST prevents stone/dscales from chipping, but does nothing to remove the damage taken from shield?
Other suggestions I'd have: (this would be useful if time stop was a lot harder to get, imo) How about making time stop a group affect? Maybe a good idea, maybe a shitty one, but this might balance out if enchanters didn't have globe per se anymore.
How about yanking haste from chanters, and increasing the duration for elementalist/necro haste?
I know these seem like huge downgrades to the enchanter class. I'm planning to take away *gasp* 2 of the most highly used chanter spells! However, if this gives enchanters a less one-dimensional role in groups, it will definitely improve them, after people get OVER the typical flaming after downgrades.
At this point, possibly the status-effect spells enchanters have could be looked at, and maybe the chance of hitting upped _slightly_.
Enchanters aren't a one-dimensional class, it's just that half their spells are useful and half of them aren't worth memming, much less casting. Balancing this out is really the way to provide a long-term enjoyability adjustment. At the same time, it firms up elementalists & necros' role in groups a little more.
-Xebes, who doesn't shy away from the controversial.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Interesting observations all, I'd like to address Kiryan's original points
first:
1 -- The spells don't fade later in combat, that implies a longer-lasting spell.
Chanters just finish faster, so the group gets started sooner. Making chanter
spellups faster, thus easing workload and making class more fun to play, was the
design of TS, I believe.
2 -- In a zone where this is really gonna be a problem, are you going to do it
with less than 2 chanters? You arent going to add another hitter, thus another
extra haste/globe, and drop a caster just because of timestop.
If your in a group with 7-8 chars, how many will be hitters? 4-5 max. So your
talking about 4-5 globes and hastes, but really you only gonna scale/stone/blur
the main tank. In a larger group of 15 people, Ill bet you have one more chanter
to break it up which takes it back to the previous setup of 4-5 PCs to take care
of. ANd that doesnt include how many times a group brings a lich along to handle
the hastes. I doubt group composition has been affected by timestop at all.
3 -- You're talking about seconds -- and yes, over the course of a zone it adds
up. To about an extra 2-3 minutes. That's important for some zones that pop, but
hardly creates an imbalance that allows you to run over zones in record time.
4 -- yes, timestop could be used to cast spells with long cast times, but you
use those spells mostly outside of a zone doing char maintenance/exploration
kind of things. I may cast timestop before I cast relocate, but how is that
increasing my power that much? I save 5 stars of time? Ooh -- I can see where
that makes me an uber object locater.
I really question the need for this spell in the first place, but then I dont
think being a chanter is work. I think it's fun. Do I have a heavy workload when
Im the primary stone/blur/haste during exp runs? Yeah, I'm busting my butt. But
zoning is a lighter workload for the reasons listed in #2 above re: splitting up
spellups.
One other point, and not to flame Xebes, but I think a good illustration:
Xebes said: I maintain that enchanters are too powerful for their own good.
What's the problem with enchanters, really? They can do so damn much that it
requires many many more times the typing and attention than ANY other class I
have ever played.
So they're too powerful because you have to pay attention and type? I like the
fact that I dont just type assist tank and let my
autobasher/autorescue/autolooter take over. (But as a caster, thank you warriors
that have autorescue/autobash!) Don't confuse having necessary and useful spells
that makes you a good group member for too much power. I don't see chanters
running all over Faerun soloing the toughest mobs.
It sounds like you might just have picked the wrong class. The class is probably
the most complete in the game from a balance/play standpoint, please leave it
alone.
Zetey
first:
1 -- The spells don't fade later in combat, that implies a longer-lasting spell.
Chanters just finish faster, so the group gets started sooner. Making chanter
spellups faster, thus easing workload and making class more fun to play, was the
design of TS, I believe.
2 -- In a zone where this is really gonna be a problem, are you going to do it
with less than 2 chanters? You arent going to add another hitter, thus another
extra haste/globe, and drop a caster just because of timestop.
If your in a group with 7-8 chars, how many will be hitters? 4-5 max. So your
talking about 4-5 globes and hastes, but really you only gonna scale/stone/blur
the main tank. In a larger group of 15 people, Ill bet you have one more chanter
to break it up which takes it back to the previous setup of 4-5 PCs to take care
of. ANd that doesnt include how many times a group brings a lich along to handle
the hastes. I doubt group composition has been affected by timestop at all.
3 -- You're talking about seconds -- and yes, over the course of a zone it adds
up. To about an extra 2-3 minutes. That's important for some zones that pop, but
hardly creates an imbalance that allows you to run over zones in record time.
4 -- yes, timestop could be used to cast spells with long cast times, but you
use those spells mostly outside of a zone doing char maintenance/exploration
kind of things. I may cast timestop before I cast relocate, but how is that
increasing my power that much? I save 5 stars of time? Ooh -- I can see where
that makes me an uber object locater.
I really question the need for this spell in the first place, but then I dont
think being a chanter is work. I think it's fun. Do I have a heavy workload when
Im the primary stone/blur/haste during exp runs? Yeah, I'm busting my butt. But
zoning is a lighter workload for the reasons listed in #2 above re: splitting up
spellups.
One other point, and not to flame Xebes, but I think a good illustration:
Xebes said: I maintain that enchanters are too powerful for their own good.
What's the problem with enchanters, really? They can do so damn much that it
requires many many more times the typing and attention than ANY other class I
have ever played.
So they're too powerful because you have to pay attention and type? I like the
fact that I dont just type assist tank and let my
autobasher/autorescue/autolooter take over. (But as a caster, thank you warriors
that have autorescue/autobash!) Don't confuse having necessary and useful spells
that makes you a good group member for too much power. I don't see chanters
running all over Faerun soloing the toughest mobs.
It sounds like you might just have picked the wrong class. The class is probably
the most complete in the game from a balance/play standpoint, please leave it
alone.
Zetey
You'd be amazed at what a chanter can solo, albeit it takes a bit of hp gear to do it.
however it does take a unique mindset to play this class, and it's easy to get cranky quickly
maybe because the only other classes i've played before to zone level were warrior/druid/monk/conjurer that i feel this class takes the most work in a zone (i never ask for a pee break and suffer for it after we done)
but i also agree that i'd rather take my warrior. hell i'd rather xp with my warrior now, as all i have to do is turn on the bash triggers and pay attention when it's time to go on a mob. so much less typing, triggers/scripts or not.
anyway from what i understand timestop has a several star cast time and lasts less than two minutes. out of spellups does it really save you time casting relocate/identify if you still have to first cast a 5-7 star spell?
however it does take a unique mindset to play this class, and it's easy to get cranky quickly
maybe because the only other classes i've played before to zone level were warrior/druid/monk/conjurer that i feel this class takes the most work in a zone (i never ask for a pee break and suffer for it after we done)
but i also agree that i'd rather take my warrior. hell i'd rather xp with my warrior now, as all i have to do is turn on the bash triggers and pay attention when it's time to go on a mob. so much less typing, triggers/scripts or not.
anyway from what i understand timestop has a several star cast time and lasts less than two minutes. out of spellups does it really save you time casting relocate/identify if you still have to first cast a 5-7 star spell?
Zetey, play a goodie enchanter before you comment please. 9-10 hitter types in MANY groups, and often times I've been the only enchanter available to zone. For all practicaly zoning purposes, goodie liches DO NOT EXIST. there is one active goodie lich and I group with her maybe once every 3 weeks. If that.
I LOVE that enchanters take more thought. Until I realized that I could macro all the spellups and write basic mudclient code to automate most everything. I don't bot, but enchanter playing is simple enough a problem that I literally _could_.
After 70days of playtime as an enchanter, your perspective on the class will change, I'm sure. It's gotten to the point where all I really really want to do is smite stuff solo or in small groups anymore. Wanna know my fun personal challenge? I go take a rogue with me down to um2 (for picking locks) and see if I can solo 90% of the eq in there by myself. guess what? It's possible. That's when I realized chanters were a TAD on the overpowered side. Should I be able to kill multiple caster mobs solo?
-xeb, just a little jaded.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
I LOVE that enchanters take more thought. Until I realized that I could macro all the spellups and write basic mudclient code to automate most everything. I don't bot, but enchanter playing is simple enough a problem that I literally _could_.
After 70days of playtime as an enchanter, your perspective on the class will change, I'm sure. It's gotten to the point where all I really really want to do is smite stuff solo or in small groups anymore. Wanna know my fun personal challenge? I go take a rogue with me down to um2 (for picking locks) and see if I can solo 90% of the eq in there by myself. guess what? It's possible. That's when I realized chanters were a TAD on the overpowered side. Should I be able to kill multiple caster mobs solo?
-xeb, just a little jaded.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Also btw Zetey, I loved playing chanter when I was still midlevel and still had somewhere to go- when spelling people up was still a challenge. now i feel like a human pattern-matcher. Nothing I'm doing takes real intelligence or anything else that really makes it fun anymore.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
It makes spellups faster....
... so people *cough* dont go AFK while spelling up and miss half the fight
it makes gating planes much faster, ohh the umber power!
yes 1* relos can save your ass if your runing from an agro
NO it does not over power enchanters, the timmer/lvl restrictions on pwb took care of that
Enchs are a utility class, TS makes them the best at it, and most proficent.
A reason they needed it. spells where droping LONG before spellup was finished.
same line of thinking....
bash "can" stun mobs, bashing is over rated
successfull rescues lags less then failed ones, rescue is over powered, delete them both
... so people *cough* dont go AFK while spelling up and miss half the fight
it makes gating planes much faster, ohh the umber power!
yes 1* relos can save your ass if your runing from an agro
NO it does not over power enchanters, the timmer/lvl restrictions on pwb took care of that
Enchs are a utility class, TS makes them the best at it, and most proficent.
A reason they needed it. spells where droping LONG before spellup was finished.
same line of thinking....
bash "can" stun mobs, bashing is over rated
successfull rescues lags less then failed ones, rescue is over powered, delete them both
Xebes:
Most of your comments seem to be more personal observations about how you feel about the class and your own burnout. I still don't see the uber effect of TS.
Pinky's comments reaffirm this, I believe, and certainly come from a more authoritative voice than any of my observations.
And no, I'm not going to bite on any of your other comments. *grin*
Zet
Most of your comments seem to be more personal observations about how you feel about the class and your own burnout. I still don't see the uber effect of TS.
Pinky's comments reaffirm this, I believe, and certainly come from a more authoritative voice than any of my observations.
And no, I'm not going to bite on any of your other comments. *grin*
Zet
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
someone said TS made no difference in group compositions. quite frankly, TS allows a single enchanter to spell up more folks in less time. how could that have no impact on group composition. if not in practice, at least in potential.
the answer to the spell up problem was not make the main most powerful spell up class better at spelling folks up, it was make other spell up classes able to help out (which they already can imo), or better yet wait for goodies to roll some casters.
Evils have like 15 40+ enchanters and clerics for a much much smaller pbase, why? cause you can't zone without one.
the answer to the spell up problem was not make the main most powerful spell up class better at spelling folks up, it was make other spell up classes able to help out (which they already can imo), or better yet wait for goodies to roll some casters.
Evils have like 15 40+ enchanters and clerics for a much much smaller pbase, why? cause you can't zone without one.
as an enchanter I'd like to say that I cannot wait to get TS. If the mud would stop lagging for 5 minutes every 20 minutes I'd have it right now, but oh well.
Kiyre, I see your point on how having TS could potentially change the makeup of a group, but seriously, who wouldn't want to have 2 if not 3 pris'ers in big zones? Makes some fights so much easier. Also, do you know anyone who builds a zone group based on a rigid template? I know that I usually acc first, then check the who 40 s u good list to fill in what I don't have already. Yeah I'll opt for a hitter/nuker if I already have 3 tanks, but just because I get TS doesn't mean I'm not going to take that 2nd enchanter.
As for enchanters being overpowered, I say poo to that. Yeah we can solo a lot, but it takes quite a long time to get to a high enough level so that you can start solo'ing stuff. Not to mention the fact that most of the stuff that we solo is basically useless by the time we're able to solo it.
Why would you want to take away globe/haste from enchanters Xebes? Globe is their primary spell, and haste is one of the most fun to see in action. It would be nice to see necro/lich/elementalists have their globe times increased, but that would just add another class that you need to zone, and how often can you find more than 1 of those classes that is 46+?
I've been playing a chanter for almost 50 days now, and yeah I feel burnt out at times, but they're still my favorite class. Maybe they are a bit one dimensional, but I seem to have a blast doing zones where I can constrict mobs to stop casting, or blind/para/damage mobs in large groups using prism.
There should be a reward for those hours that we spend exp'ing (I'm sure that top notch players can exp a chanter fast, but new chanters are clueless and just trudge along very slowly). That reward should be that we're a badass mofo when we hit level 50.
Chanters are fine how they are imo, and thanks so much for adding TS.
Sel
Kiyre, I see your point on how having TS could potentially change the makeup of a group, but seriously, who wouldn't want to have 2 if not 3 pris'ers in big zones? Makes some fights so much easier. Also, do you know anyone who builds a zone group based on a rigid template? I know that I usually acc first, then check the who 40 s u good list to fill in what I don't have already. Yeah I'll opt for a hitter/nuker if I already have 3 tanks, but just because I get TS doesn't mean I'm not going to take that 2nd enchanter.
As for enchanters being overpowered, I say poo to that. Yeah we can solo a lot, but it takes quite a long time to get to a high enough level so that you can start solo'ing stuff. Not to mention the fact that most of the stuff that we solo is basically useless by the time we're able to solo it.
Why would you want to take away globe/haste from enchanters Xebes? Globe is their primary spell, and haste is one of the most fun to see in action. It would be nice to see necro/lich/elementalists have their globe times increased, but that would just add another class that you need to zone, and how often can you find more than 1 of those classes that is 46+?
I've been playing a chanter for almost 50 days now, and yeah I feel burnt out at times, but they're still my favorite class. Maybe they are a bit one dimensional, but I seem to have a blast doing zones where I can constrict mobs to stop casting, or blind/para/damage mobs in large groups using prism.
There should be a reward for those hours that we spend exp'ing (I'm sure that top notch players can exp a chanter fast, but new chanters are clueless and just trudge along very slowly). That reward should be that we're a badass mofo when we hit level 50.
Chanters are fine how they are imo, and thanks so much for adding TS.
Sel
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
oh and on taking globe from enchanters. i dont think thats a good idea. i dont think anyone wants there to be more classes required for zoning. take globe away and you just made someone required. with as much bitching as going on about haste, removing haste would also make some other class required.
time stop is a cool spell, it seves purposes. im just questioning whether the spell served purposes for which it was designed and or had many un-intended effects.
time stop is a cool spell, it seves purposes. im just questioning whether the spell served purposes for which it was designed and or had many un-intended effects.
Is globe a _required_ spell for zoning? Same with haste.
Why is it that clerics are required in a group for full heal, warriors for rescue, but chanters are required in a group for stone/scales, globe, AND haste?
Why aren't chanters required in a group for anything but spellups, when they have a whole assortment of other nifty spells?
Here's a thought... if chanters didn't have globe/haste anymore would they be THAT much of a required class? Think on that a sec. I know, I'm suggesting change, and with the general attitudes of people around here we should never change a goddamned thing, cause it's obviously already perfect the way it is.
By the way, sel... globe is NOT absolutely NOT the enchanter's primary spell. Please rethink this. It's entirely possible to fight shielded mobs w/o globing the group. Is it "easy"? no, not so terribly much anymore. But it's still very very doable. Chanters' prime zoning spell has and probably always will be dragonscales (or stoneskin, for lower level chanters)
What I would really like to see is a definite upgrade in the offensive enchantments of the chanter class. However, enchanters are already so damn useful as spellup bitches that there's just about no way to justify them getting a straight upgrade. What I propose are just modifications to the class to make it less one-dimensional. This is based on the simple fact I have observed playing the game: that one-dimensional classes are NOT enjoyable for a overwhelmingly large portion of the playerbase.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Why is it that clerics are required in a group for full heal, warriors for rescue, but chanters are required in a group for stone/scales, globe, AND haste?
Why aren't chanters required in a group for anything but spellups, when they have a whole assortment of other nifty spells?
Here's a thought... if chanters didn't have globe/haste anymore would they be THAT much of a required class? Think on that a sec. I know, I'm suggesting change, and with the general attitudes of people around here we should never change a goddamned thing, cause it's obviously already perfect the way it is.
By the way, sel... globe is NOT absolutely NOT the enchanter's primary spell. Please rethink this. It's entirely possible to fight shielded mobs w/o globing the group. Is it "easy"? no, not so terribly much anymore. But it's still very very doable. Chanters' prime zoning spell has and probably always will be dragonscales (or stoneskin, for lower level chanters)
What I would really like to see is a definite upgrade in the offensive enchantments of the chanter class. However, enchanters are already so damn useful as spellup bitches that there's just about no way to justify them getting a straight upgrade. What I propose are just modifications to the class to make it less one-dimensional. This is based on the simple fact I have observed playing the game: that one-dimensional classes are NOT enjoyable for a overwhelmingly large portion of the playerbase.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
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kiryan
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>Why is it that clerics are required in a group for full heal, warriors for rescue, but chanters are required in a group for stone/scales, globe, AND haste?
enchanters required for one reason, scale. plenty of others can globe or haste, and i agree with you globe is not necessary if you dont bring along a couple invokers lichs and squids/druids. fly might be another candidate for required, there is bard fly.
ya know if you enchanters had some balls and it was a big problem youd just tell those bitches to do without haste. spell damage > melee damage. leaders could grow some balls too and tell the 5th-9th melee that asks for a group that the melee slots are full.
personally, i think the spellup problem is something that happens when you bring 9 melee to a zone. even before timestop it was not a great feat for a 50 enc to scale an entire group (in those situations that require it) globe 4 hitters and cast a haste or blur or 2, and thats precombat, just cuz your fighting doesnt mean you cant keep spelling up. sure it was a work out and spells were fading like mad and uncoordinated groups ended up spelling up for 15 straight minutes, but it was possible.
its ridiculous to expect one person to spell up the entire group. does one priest to do all the vits, why expect enchanter to do all the globes hastes scales and blurs. the solution wasn't give them that ability to do so, it was bring a second person to help spell up or do without something.
of course maybe i am just missing the point of time stop. i encourage the designers/impers to post their concept/intentions.
enchanters required for one reason, scale. plenty of others can globe or haste, and i agree with you globe is not necessary if you dont bring along a couple invokers lichs and squids/druids. fly might be another candidate for required, there is bard fly.
ya know if you enchanters had some balls and it was a big problem youd just tell those bitches to do without haste. spell damage > melee damage. leaders could grow some balls too and tell the 5th-9th melee that asks for a group that the melee slots are full.
personally, i think the spellup problem is something that happens when you bring 9 melee to a zone. even before timestop it was not a great feat for a 50 enc to scale an entire group (in those situations that require it) globe 4 hitters and cast a haste or blur or 2, and thats precombat, just cuz your fighting doesnt mean you cant keep spelling up. sure it was a work out and spells were fading like mad and uncoordinated groups ended up spelling up for 15 straight minutes, but it was possible.
its ridiculous to expect one person to spell up the entire group. does one priest to do all the vits, why expect enchanter to do all the globes hastes scales and blurs. the solution wasn't give them that ability to do so, it was bring a second person to help spell up or do without something.
of course maybe i am just missing the point of time stop. i encourage the designers/impers to post their concept/intentions.
Evils have like 15 40+ enchanters and clerics for a much much smaller pbase, why? cause you can't zone without one.
we can, we have, and we will again
its ridiculous to expect one person to spell up the entire group. does one priest to do all the vits, why expect enchanter to do all the globes hastes scales and blurs. the solution wasn't give them that ability to do so, it was bring a second person to help spell up or do without something.
again, we can, yes they do, seen it on many ocasions that 1 cleric does whole group...
have even seen groups where 3 ghealers did all the stones/heals !ench !cleric....
I dont know why you dont like ts, or you maybe want it takin out.. but enchs have 0 to speak of offense, !tanking capability *cough*...so whats that leave theM? defense thats right....
priests do 1 MAYBE 2 spells of spellup
invokers CAN di/dm/lev woopy
Liches same as invokers + pact + pfc + haste + globe but they have pets so its null to mention them..
Enchs have globe/haste/blur/dscale/stone they have 0 pets, and have to spell up the most people, so that many spells on the most amount of people = you need help and TS was the answer
Cudos for implementing it
plz give me a real reason you dont like it/why you think it shouldnt be in....
we can, we have, and we will again
its ridiculous to expect one person to spell up the entire group. does one priest to do all the vits, why expect enchanter to do all the globes hastes scales and blurs. the solution wasn't give them that ability to do so, it was bring a second person to help spell up or do without something.
again, we can, yes they do, seen it on many ocasions that 1 cleric does whole group...
have even seen groups where 3 ghealers did all the stones/heals !ench !cleric....
I dont know why you dont like ts, or you maybe want it takin out.. but enchs have 0 to speak of offense, !tanking capability *cough*...so whats that leave theM? defense thats right....
priests do 1 MAYBE 2 spells of spellup
invokers CAN di/dm/lev woopy
Liches same as invokers + pact + pfc + haste + globe but they have pets so its null to mention them..
Enchs have globe/haste/blur/dscale/stone they have 0 pets, and have to spell up the most people, so that many spells on the most amount of people = you need help and TS was the answer
Cudos for implementing it
plz give me a real reason you dont like it/why you think it shouldnt be in....
I like the spell, it definitely helps out. HOWEVER, I feel like it makes the class too one-dimensional.
Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I'd like to see that not just about every spell that's worthwhile for a chanter to cast is a spellup spell.
IMO, stuff like constriction is great... play games with timing it right and you have a pretty good chance of making mobs abort their spells. It's not silence, which is good. It sure as hell is defensive, which is also good.
I guess I have a bit of a different vision as to what the perfect enchanter class would look like, and that's okay. I'll agree to disagree with you guys on some issues, raise some novel ideas once in awhile, and have mad fun playin the chanter and smiting stuff. :-)
Btw... agreed Jegzed, pris spray rules.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Maybe it's a pipe dream, but I'd like to see that not just about every spell that's worthwhile for a chanter to cast is a spellup spell.
IMO, stuff like constriction is great... play games with timing it right and you have a pretty good chance of making mobs abort their spells. It's not silence, which is good. It sure as hell is defensive, which is also good.
I guess I have a bit of a different vision as to what the perfect enchanter class would look like, and that's okay. I'll agree to disagree with you guys on some issues, raise some novel ideas once in awhile, and have mad fun playin the chanter and smiting stuff. :-)
Btw... agreed Jegzed, pris spray rules.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
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kiryan
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>Enchs have globe/haste/blur/dscale/stone they have 0 pets, and have to spell up the most people, so that many spells on the most amount of people = you need help and TS was the answer
so the purpose was to upgrade players and enchanters? more spells from less people?
its a fucking rad spell, truly unique, but also a medium sized un-necessary upgrade to overall player power.
so like i titled this thread, what was the point?
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-04-2002).]
so the purpose was to upgrade players and enchanters? more spells from less people?
its a fucking rad spell, truly unique, but also a medium sized un-necessary upgrade to overall player power.
so like i titled this thread, what was the point?
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-04-2002).]
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>>Enchs have globe/haste/blur/dscale/stone they have 0 pets, and have to spell up the most people, so that many spells on the most amount of people = you need help and TS was the answer
so the purpose was to upgrade players and enchanters? more spells from less people?
its a fucking rad spell, truly unique, but also a medium sized un-necessary upgrade to overall player power.
so like i titled this thread, what was the point?
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-04-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You would have to ask while I was outta town
The main point of the spell, in my mind (and I'm the guy who thought of it, so hopefully I'm accurate) was to reduce the amount of time sitting around waiting for spellup. Not just for the enchanter, but for the group in general (as they wait for the enchanter).
(Actually, apparently people had suggested something similar back in alpha or early beta, but I wasn't a god then and didn't see it, just to clarify).
Incidentally, if you're clever, you can certainly reduce your typing an awful lot using this spell (without radically slowing down your spellup).
<B>>Enchs have globe/haste/blur/dscale/stone they have 0 pets, and have to spell up the most people, so that many spells on the most amount of people = you need help and TS was the answer
so the purpose was to upgrade players and enchanters? more spells from less people?
its a fucking rad spell, truly unique, but also a medium sized un-necessary upgrade to overall player power.
so like i titled this thread, what was the point?
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-04-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You would have to ask while I was outta town
The main point of the spell, in my mind (and I'm the guy who thought of it, so hopefully I'm accurate) was to reduce the amount of time sitting around waiting for spellup. Not just for the enchanter, but for the group in general (as they wait for the enchanter).
(Actually, apparently people had suggested something similar back in alpha or early beta, but I wasn't a god then and didn't see it, just to clarify).
Incidentally, if you're clever, you can certainly reduce your typing an awful lot using this spell (without radically slowing down your spellup).
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kiryan
- Sojourner
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thx for responding. mind if i ask a few more questions?
The main point of the spell, in my mind (and I'm the guy who thought of it, so hopefully I'm accurate) was to reduce the amount of time sitting around waiting for spellup. Not just for the enchanter, but for the group in general (as they wait for the enchanter).
By how much did you want to reduce spell up? How long is appropriate for spellups? Should one enchanter person be able to scale an entire group and globe+blur 5-10 melee also? I thought some of the limit on enc power was that it really was difficult to scale an entire group and throw more than a couple of blurs, let alone also do globes and hastes... sitting around is !fun, but i felt lengthy spell ups were part of what made additional spell up classes like elementalists, necros, and someday bards more desirable.
The main point of the spell, in my mind (and I'm the guy who thought of it, so hopefully I'm accurate) was to reduce the amount of time sitting around waiting for spellup. Not just for the enchanter, but for the group in general (as they wait for the enchanter).
By how much did you want to reduce spell up? How long is appropriate for spellups? Should one enchanter person be able to scale an entire group and globe+blur 5-10 melee also? I thought some of the limit on enc power was that it really was difficult to scale an entire group and throw more than a couple of blurs, let alone also do globes and hastes... sitting around is !fun, but i felt lengthy spell ups were part of what made additional spell up classes like elementalists, necros, and someday bards more desirable.
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