dualing, off hand procing

[kiryan]

why does dual wield suck so bad?

we went from dual wielding owning (gleaming mithrils 4d5 4/5) to dual wielding sucking (major downgrade in hit/dam/procs/wt across the board), not hard to figure out why rangers felt shafted ever since soj/toril.

add to this why is it that almost no weapons proc off hand? If you only gonna get 1 weapon to proc a good 2h + proc gonna outdamage a good 1h procer and a second piece of crap like gcd.

anyhow something to think about.

[Gromikazer]

Procs do not make or break the world.

Nilan will outdamage gromikazer every time, no matter how much damroll or how much procs i have.

3 attacks 8d4 +40 damroll is around 180 average...

6 attacks 4d4 +35 damroll is around 210 average...

and thats liberal I often only have 35 dam, and nilan has 43+ dam...

You'll notice warriors can't get there dual wield beyond a certain point, that is a clear indication to me that the class is better off doing other things.

P.s. I can think of 5-6 weapons that proc offhand.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth

[This message has been edited by Gromikazer (edited 06-12-2002).]

[izarek]

offhand proc seems to have fallen to the wayside, just like other changes agreed (after much discussion with rangers), such as missile shield working like stoneskin. Its too bad too, cuz it woulda been a grand thing to see.

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Izarek / Raevithar / Fyzzlroo

[Treladian]

I know of a few offhand procing weapons, but most are too heavy for a ranger to offhand or are 1h piercers. Offhand proccing is an example of a piece of code that's still waiting for more area makers to take advantage of it, kind of like proc bows or ranged weapons (some other examples I could name, but the code isn't quite working for those). On top of that, not all area makers know how to write procs so it's something that's still very much in its infancy. The solution, bug people you know who are making areas to have offhand proccing weapons

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[kiryan]

nod gromi, im not really comparing rogues to warriors. more i was thinking of warrior vs warrior or warrior vs ranger. soj/toril all warriors and rangers were dualers. now uber damage for warriors is exclusively 2h weapons and uber damage for rangers is archery. we all heard the discussion on dualing ranger vs 2h warrior.

oh and 4 or 5 good weapons? ive heard of a couple that proc off hand but no good ones.

id say the cause is lack of off hand procing weapons.. possibly an escalation of 2h weapons dice/dam and their procs... something to think about.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-13-2002).]

[Guest]

I have a rather good plan on weapons. I know the procs on almost every one inside and out, have rewritten most of them.

I am well aware about how many offhand procing weapons there are. Much like procing bows and shields, there are only a few for a reason. I slowly bring these things in and watch how they balance out before adding more. I just added a great offhand procing weapon for rangers about 2 weeks ago, and another will be coming in with the new zones.

As for missile shield, it does work like stoneskin, magic arrows wear it down. Exactally like we said :P

I will not rush to add items until I am sure they balance out, everything here is a system of checks and balances, and nothing gets added in without a lot of thought and testing on my part.

So be patient, play with the toys you have now, and when new ones come out, play with those too

-Garg

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Gargauth the Outcast

[kiryan]

cool thanks for your input garg.

[Kifle]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gargamel:
<B>I have a rather good plan on weapons. I know the procs on almost every one inside and out, have rewritten most of them.

I am well aware about how many offhand procing weapons there are. Much like procing bows and shields, there are only a few for a reason. I slowly bring these things in and watch how they balance out before adding more. I just added a great offhand procing weapon for rangers about 2 weeks ago, and another will be coming in with the new zones.

As for missile shield, it does work like stoneskin, magic arrows wear it down. Exactally like we said :P

I will not rush to add items until I am sure they balance out, everything here is a system of checks and balances, and nothing gets added in without a lot of thought and testing on my part.

So be patient, play with the toys you have now, and when new ones come out, play with those too

-Garg

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damnit! more ranger weapons...what about the rogues! Think about your rogues....

Help save the live of a rogue, kill your local invoker today!

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers

[Waelos]

Rogues: hey! ever consider wielding a 1h slasher in your off hand? lotta rangers dual daggers off. . . maybe y'all should consider wielding a non piercer =) (after your initial backstab, that is)

Really, there aren't all that many proc weapons for the off hand for any class (other than warriors hehe). Not that I really can or am complaining =] but before getting Crystal and Valhalla, high level rangers are limited to (realistically) windsong and GCD. Thankfully glimmering is in now for the hardier doots like human and halfelf rangers, so thats nice.

I Have more thoughts on this but Im out of time! gotta run, all be well.

Lost

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[Ragorn]

Originally, the weight of weapons was planned to allow human rangers the ability to dual more proc weapons. This was going to be one of their balancing factors vs. the elven rangers... they could wield, say, something white hot and fiery off hand whereas their half- and grey elf counterparts could not.

Unfortunately, there just aren't enough off hand proccers out there for this effect to be truly noticable.

- Ragorn

[Waelos]

*laugh* Honestly, there is no 'balance' issue when it comes to greys vs humans. They're balanced just fine. Humans get the str/con advantage (read crit/dam/hps) where greys get the extra attack every 5 rounds (really, it _is_ kinda low to be considered an 'advantage' to a hitter class). Also, grey agility is considered to be an advantage. Could be . . . but really, 95% of all rangers shouldn't be tanking much anyway. Really, the crux of this whole issue is:

Halfelves can use windsong AND have all of the advantages that humans have (hps, str).

That is it.

There needs to be some racial disparity between humans / half elves. Honestly, I don't think EQ need to be added or whatever to make this balanced. There are a number of nice weapons that human rangers can use in primary, but not secondary.

Basically, Half elves need to be dropped down a MAX str notch, make weapons like silver basket, rippling, etc all weight 7 or 8 (which is the heaviest a MAX notched human can get to) thus giving half elves the 'windsong advantage' yet also allowing humans a greater range of good proc weapons for their off hand.

And for the record, human and half elf rangers have the same natural hps (barring the randomness of rolls). Their MAX notchs totally different, however (humans at 101, halfelves at 107? 108?) so the trade off is decent here. I say we do the same with str (but not allow 1/2's to get to the max notch where they can dual weight 8 weapons) to balance out the race/class combinations. Oh yeah, and jack up grey dex attack rate. its kinda . . . not happening enough, imho! *wink*

Lost

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[Treladian]

"Originally, the weight of weapons was planned to allow human rangers the ability to dual more proc weapons. This was going to be one of their balancing factors vs. the elven rangers... they could wield, say, something white hot and fiery off hand whereas their half- and grey elf counterparts could not.
Unfortunately, there just aren't enough off hand proccers out there for this effect to be truly noticable"

There is a human-only ranger weapon in the works. So this is an issue that should be fixed whenever Garg finishes his plate

"Halfelves can use windsong AND have all of the advantages that humans have (hps, str)."

The balancing point really seems to rest on the use of max_stat gear for humans. Notch wise, humans and halfelves have the same naked hit/dam at max notch. The strength and dex differences are minimal. But humans get a lot more out of max_stat gear than halfelves. The most obvious is getting that extra 50 hitpoints with one piece of max_con gear. The not so obvious but still useful is the dam notch and increased crit chance with one piece of max_str gear. If a human has a really high strength, then stat wise gauntlets of power will be like gold dscales with increased crit rate. While a half-elf will have a lower max_dex notch, that doesn't really mean anything since extra attacks is a function of both dex AND race, meaning they can't just slap on that UM crown and start throwing out another slash every 6 rounds.

Since windy isn't the uber ranger weapon anymore and humans will be getting something for their not-uber-but-still-nice ranger weapon, I don't think any changes to the base racial stats are needed. The functional differences between halfelves and humans will just be in eq, excluding being able to prance around on EM and infra (which can also technically be attained by eq, but not via anything a ranger is likely to want to use).

Oh, and I can think of at least one offhand proccer that a human can offhand but a halfelf can't, but it requires a hellish amount of max_str to do and isn't really a good weapon for damage

Things are coming together. Slowly, but they're coming together.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[Waelos]

I'd be very curious to see what weapon can be wielded off hand by human that a half elf can't wield. I've done extensive experiments (back when I was Waelos and half elven myself) with Max Str gear with 1/2 elf and human rangers. . . using all the max str eq available for rangers of both races (2 thick addys, power gauntlets and the bulky cloak, netting a 115 str) there was nothing that a human could off hand that a 1/2 elf could not. Unless things have changed. . . their str should be the same as far as what they can wield off hand goes.

In any case, it really doesnt matter. the sentiment stays the same in that I believe there needs to be a bit more difference between the races as far as stats go. Now, there is only one benefit to playing a human and thats an easier MAX con notch. If their strengths are different, it isn't significant to the off hand issue. I think strength should be changed so that there is a noticable and appreciable difference in the weight weapons humans and halfelves can dual with MAX str.

Also. . . not sure if this is significant or not. . . but we all know that when we want to wield something in the off hand that is normally too heavy, we'll just load up on str eq and then replace it after we've wielded the weapon. . . Should that change? Should we have to wear the MAX str eq full time to wield the weapon off, or should we be able to load up, wield, remove?

Lost.

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[Treladian]

"I'd be very curious to see what weapon can be wielded off hand by human that a half elf can't wield. I've done extensive experiments (back when I was Waelos and half elven myself) with Max Str gear with 1/2 elf and human rangers. . . using all the max str eq available for rangers of both races (2 thick addys, power gauntlets and the bulky cloak, netting a 115 str) there was nothing that a human could off hand that a 1/2 elf could not. Unless things have changed. . . their str should be the same as far as what they can wield off hand goes."

Hmmm, bulky cloak is something I've never even seen used this wipe so I didn't have a chance to try with that. I'm fairly sure the weapon in question had its weight changed from previous wipes, but I'm not 100% sure. In any case, I agree that it doesn't really matter in and of itself.

"In any case, it really doesnt matter. the sentiment stays the same in that I believe there needs to be a bit more difference between the races as far as stats go. Now, there is only one benefit to playing a human and thats an easier MAX con notch. If their strengths are different, it isn't significant to the off hand issue. I think strength should be changed so that there is a noticable and appreciable difference in the weight weapons humans and halfelves can dual with MAX str."

I think the increased crit rate humans can get with just one piece of max str counts as another bonus Half-elves need more than that to get a crit bonus since their strength is slightly below human.

Stat changes are a touchy issue. If one thing goes up or down, something else needs to change too and there's not that much room for stat deviations between human, halfelf, and other races with a stat that's only a little better or worse than those two, ie greys are only slightly more dextrous than halfelves.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[Waelos]

Trel-

So basically you're saying that humans and half elves should be allowed to off hand the same weight weapons? I could be wrong, but that seems to be the slant that your arguments are taking us.

As it stands now, they can both off hand the same weapons given enough max str eq. . . And we all know that it doesnt matter how high the 'notch' is if it is 'gettable' for only an instant. Keeping human and half-elf strength max notches as they currently are would allow them to off hand the same pool of weapons (barring racial restrictions, of course).

Now it was my understanding that humans were to be able to off hand better/more procing weapons than half elves. . . so, the thoughts I have floated have been to this end. The changes suggested wouldn't change any existing half elf's str numbers. their crit and dam rolls would be the same. Simply, they will not be able to dual wield heavier weapons via alot of MAX str equipment. If that was unclear, then I apologize for my lack of communication.

Lost

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[Daz]

barbarians should be rangers.

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-Daz Proudwolf, Tapestry Pirate
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

One, I don't know who in the hell you are.
Two, I don't CARE who in the hell you are.
This isn't personal.
THIS IS A GAME.

Erevan

[Verarb]

wow so half elves and humans get the smae hps?. that apply to caster classes too? max_con doesnt happen for human casters.

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[Waelos]

Well V. . . halfelves can only be Bards or Rangers or druids. They can't be any other class. Well, in the old days you could be a warrior if you traded with evils enough or got your align into the toilet enough. hehe.

So. . . I guess if you're askin' about half elf druids and human druidss. . . then being being half elvenn is the way to go. Not sure how their wisdom stacks to human wisdom though. . . I Think humans have better wisdom (I really don't know though)

=]

Lost

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[Treladian]

"As it stands now, they can both off hand the same weapons given enough max str eq. . . And we all know that it doesnt matter how high the 'notch' is if it is 'gettable' for only an instant. Keeping human and half-elf strength max notches as they currently are would allow them to off hand the same pool of weapons (barring racial restrictions, of course).

Now it was my understanding that humans were to be able to off hand better/more procing weapons than half elves. . . so, the thoughts I have floated have been to this end. The changes suggested wouldn't change any existing half elf's str numbers. their crit and dam rolls would be the same. Simply, they will not be able to dual wield heavier weapons via alot of MAX str equipment. If that was unclear, then I apologize for my lack of communication."

Since human rangers will be getting a weapon for themselves, I don't think that the offhand proccing issue for humans is as big of a deal anymore (well, once it gets put in anyway). Since int isn't as important to rangers anymore and halfelves have no wisdom bonus and the benefits of max dex for both humans and halfelves land on the 6 hit naked with max_dex not granting extra attacks for either due to how it's set up, humans already have a stat advantage over half-elves. And if a half-elf wants to use max_str to wield a heavier offhand, that requires max_str gear which generally isn't as powerful as pure hit/dam gear. The ability to remove strength gear and still hold onto something you're wielding seems more like a bug than a balance issue to me so I don't think it's entirely relevant, but since a human can hit another dam notch with gauntlets of power and get increased crit chance out of them they still are gaining benefits from a slightly higher strength, even if it doesn't necesarily let them wield heavier offhands.

The only stat that a halfelf has higher than a human that gives some tangible benefit to rangers is their slightly higher agility while humans already can get more out of their strength and con with max stat gear. The heavier offhand proccer was an idea conceived when no one was working on something to give human rangers something to make up for not being able to wield windy and when halfelf rangers got a class related benefit to their wisdom bonus. I don't think there's as much of a need for an advantage in offhand proccers now than there was at the time the idea was first presented. If the human ranger weapon winds up significantly weaker than windsong, then I would agree that having the ability to wield better offhand proccers would be important but I think it's too early to tell right now.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.