The race is primarily spellcasting in nature... Kinda wanted to test these classes out a bit, but I wanna be a grey.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
Illusionist/Elementalist race question
Illusionist/Elementalist race question
Any reason in particular these classes aren't allowed as grey elves?
The race is primarily spellcasting in nature... Kinda wanted to test these classes out a bit, but I wanna be a grey.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
The race is primarily spellcasting in nature... Kinda wanted to test these classes out a bit, but I wanna be a grey.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Any reason in particular these classes aren't allowed as grey elves?
The race is primarily spellcasting in nature... Kinda wanted to test these classes out a bit, but I wanna be a grey.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Illusion is !elf in general. Their magical nature actually prevents them from using it. Not sure on the elementalists.
<B>Any reason in particular these classes aren't allowed as grey elves?
The race is primarily spellcasting in nature... Kinda wanted to test these classes out a bit, but I wanna be a grey.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Illusion is !elf in general. Their magical nature actually prevents them from using it. Not sure on the elementalists.
Prevents them on sojourn you mean.. In D&D there is no such restriction... And them being resistant to it shouldn't preclude their using it. That should be their ultimate weapon.
If I were virtually immune to my own spells, I would use them with impunity(sp?).
In D&D, gnomes are illusionists... But not invokers or enchanters for the most part.. So I could argue this both ways.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
If I were virtually immune to my own spells, I would use them with impunity(sp?).
In D&D, gnomes are illusionists... But not invokers or enchanters for the most part.. So I could argue this both ways.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
2E rules preclude Elves from being illusionists, that's how I originally came to that decision. They're so resistant to it that they can't harness it effectively, interferes with their innate magic.
Of course, the gameplay reason to back up that roleplay consideration was to give Gnomes a little niche - at the time, there were very few, as everyone preferred Elves.
Perhaps that's no longer a valid reason, I'm open to feedback on the matter.
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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
Of course, the gameplay reason to back up that roleplay consideration was to give Gnomes a little niche - at the time, there were very few, as everyone preferred Elves.
Perhaps that's no longer a valid reason, I'm open to feedback on the matter.
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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
Hadn't checked 2nd edition stuff in a while.. Oops
I think Grey Elves, with their almost nonexistant ability to be an effective tank, and lowered(arguably.. And in comparison to other races, not because of a downgrade, or somesuch) ability to be a melee hitter, should be a premier caster race (as should drow I guess).
Gnomes can be invokers, enchanters, elementalists, and illusionists.. They also cannot really tank.
Both races are roughly equal, and in the same boat. I feel Illusionists, if not elementalists, should be opened to grey elves.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 07-09-2002).]
I think Grey Elves, with their almost nonexistant ability to be an effective tank, and lowered(arguably.. And in comparison to other races, not because of a downgrade, or somesuch) ability to be a melee hitter, should be a premier caster race (as should drow I guess).
Gnomes can be invokers, enchanters, elementalists, and illusionists.. They also cannot really tank.
Both races are roughly equal, and in the same boat. I feel Illusionists, if not elementalists, should be opened to grey elves.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 07-09-2002).]
Been discussing this with folks...
If it stays as is, I think gnomes should be removed from the list to be invokers. Gnomes specialize in trickery and deception... Not destruction. It goes against their 'build build build' mentality.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it that elves are resistant to sleep and charm effects? Not illusions?
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Malacar - omg ymir!
If it stays as is, I think gnomes should be removed from the list to be invokers. Gnomes specialize in trickery and deception... Not destruction. It goes against their 'build build build' mentality.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it that elves are resistant to sleep and charm effects? Not illusions?
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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Been discussing this with folks...
If it stays as is, I think gnomes should be removed from the list to be invokers. Gnomes specialize in trickery and deception... Not destruction. It goes against their 'build build build' mentality.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it that elves are resistant to sleep and charm effects? Not illusions?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only thing in D&D that made gnomes more likely to be illusionists is that they could multi-class and be an illusionist (in 2nd edition, at least, that was unique). They were just as likely to be invokers as anyone else past that.
<B>Been discussing this with folks...
If it stays as is, I think gnomes should be removed from the list to be invokers. Gnomes specialize in trickery and deception... Not destruction. It goes against their 'build build build' mentality.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it that elves are resistant to sleep and charm effects? Not illusions?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The only thing in D&D that made gnomes more likely to be illusionists is that they could multi-class and be an illusionist (in 2nd edition, at least, that was unique). They were just as likely to be invokers as anyone else past that.
I disagree with you there. Gnomes overall were not a destructive race. Every module I have seen where there were evil gnomes, they used treachery and deception as their main wiles, not destruction.
In older editions, they could only be illusionists. In newer editions, they can be any mage class, with heavy favoritism towards illusions.
Whereas Elves are heavily(in new editions again mind you) magic oriented, and have a generalized class(wizard) as their preferred class.
The issue stems from the fact that Sojourn specifically requires you to specialize. A unique concept in the d&d world. Thus some preconceptions need to be overlooked and such.
Historically, humans could be any class they wanted. It was their niche. On Sojourn, they are restricted from a few classes. And so on.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
In older editions, they could only be illusionists. In newer editions, they can be any mage class, with heavy favoritism towards illusions.
Whereas Elves are heavily(in new editions again mind you) magic oriented, and have a generalized class(wizard) as their preferred class.
The issue stems from the fact that Sojourn specifically requires you to specialize. A unique concept in the d&d world. Thus some preconceptions need to be overlooked and such.
Historically, humans could be any class they wanted. It was their niche. On Sojourn, they are restricted from a few classes. And so on.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
I agree with Malacar to a point. I do not think gnomes should be invokers. I do not see it in their nature. They are not the destructive type. I can seel eves as invokers though, as they will try to harness power to use it wisely.
As for elves being illusionist, I do not think elves should be able to be that class. I see it like this: They are so resistant to illusions, because they can just not grasp the concept of illusions. It is not logical(Vulcans!).
But that's just me.
-fubble
As for elves being illusionist, I do not think elves should be able to be that class. I see it like this: They are so resistant to illusions, because they can just not grasp the concept of illusions. It is not logical(Vulcans!).
But that's just me.
-fubble
Quoted directly from the 3rd edition players handbook:
Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
Quoted directly from a 2nd edition players handbook:
Elven characters have 90% resistance to sleep and all charm-related spells. This is in addition to the normal saving throw allowed against a charm spell.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
Quoted directly from a 2nd edition players handbook:
Elven characters have 90% resistance to sleep and all charm-related spells. This is in addition to the normal saving throw allowed against a charm spell.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Gromikazer
- Sojourner
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am
Don't open illusionists to elves, if nothing else for 1 reason. Yuan-ti illusionists would NEVER be rolled up if drow illusionists were allowed, and all those that currently exist would be horribly sleighted.
Above and beyond that, I don't belive elves need to be able to be illusionists. Don't always have to eat your cake and have it too.
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
Above and beyond that, I don't belive elves need to be able to be illusionists. Don't always have to eat your cake and have it too.
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
I think that serious and careful consideration should be given to allowing a few selected class/race combinations into the game. Many of the choices that have been made in the past concerning this issue seem to have been made to preserve a balance in the game. The situation as it stands today, however is somewhat different. More than ever, races are different from eachother, the strengths have become stronger and the weaknesses of each race weaker. It seems to me that there is enough diversity in the races themselves to open up more classes to them. Having drow illusionists and elementalists is no more dammaging than having drow enchanters and invokers. I think the same would hold true for certain others class/race combinations as well. I for one think it would be neat to see half-elf rogues and other odd combinations opened up for RP reasons.
-Zenriel
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The Lord of the Iron Wastes holds his hammer high in the air, shouting a torment... 'Weak fools!'
-Zenriel
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The Lord of the Iron Wastes holds his hammer high in the air, shouting a torment... 'Weak fools!'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B>Don't open illusionists to elves, if nothing else for 1 reason. Yuan-ti illusionists would NEVER be rolled up if drow illusionists were allowed, and all those that currently exist would be horribly sleighted.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If the yuan-ti race compares so poorly to drow, then perhaps something should be done to make the race more of a beneficial choice.. I mean, people roll human enchanters and elf enchanters.. there are good reasons to be human rather than elf. Are there no good reasons to be yuan-ti over drow?
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
<B>Don't open illusionists to elves, if nothing else for 1 reason. Yuan-ti illusionists would NEVER be rolled up if drow illusionists were allowed, and all those that currently exist would be horribly sleighted.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If the yuan-ti race compares so poorly to drow, then perhaps something should be done to make the race more of a beneficial choice.. I mean, people roll human enchanters and elf enchanters.. there are good reasons to be human rather than elf. Are there no good reasons to be yuan-ti over drow?
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Lilithelle
- Sojourner
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
- Contact:
Personally I like the class choice elves have now and see no need to add on to it, and frankly not everyone is worthy of playing an elf. Elves being the best race should restrict themselves to the best classes, like druids. Those that want to play illusionist/elementalist will just have to suffer as humans or gnomes.
There is one argument I can see for allowing elves to be elementalist, if you look at help lastname elf it says "Although Elves normally take on last names that resemble the patterning of
their first names -- long and very lyrical sounding -- at times they opt
for more nature-oriented names of tree, sky, air, earth, or water origin."
That last line looks pretty elemental to me.
I tend to agree grey elves would not be illusionists. Principally because of the shadow spells they have, elves wouldn't touch shadow magic.
There is one argument I can see for allowing elves to be elementalist, if you look at help lastname elf it says "Although Elves normally take on last names that resemble the patterning of
their first names -- long and very lyrical sounding -- at times they opt
for more nature-oriented names of tree, sky, air, earth, or water origin."
That last line looks pretty elemental to me.
I tend to agree grey elves would not be illusionists. Principally because of the shadow spells they have, elves wouldn't touch shadow magic.
All you Gnomes should hope Shev doesn't read any more of that book mentioned there, or you will all be Illu's only.
But while you are reading the 'Complete' books, hope over to the elf Bladesinger section, I'm sure Necasio would appreciate it. Heh.
As for on topic, I'd say let elves and gnomes be all the mage classes ('cept Necro cuz it doesn't fit the races) if for no other reason, someone might enjoy playing them, and that's why the game is here right?
Oh and Lil, maybe if more people played elves and HAD to learn to get along with each other, maybe SJ3 would be a better place. 8)
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emote Rescuepractice
But while you are reading the 'Complete' books, hope over to the elf Bladesinger section, I'm sure Necasio would appreciate it. Heh.
As for on topic, I'd say let elves and gnomes be all the mage classes ('cept Necro cuz it doesn't fit the races) if for no other reason, someone might enjoy playing them, and that's why the game is here right?
Oh and Lil, maybe if more people played elves and HAD to learn to get along with each other, maybe SJ3 would be a better place. 8)
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emote Rescuepractice
In 2nd Edition D&D the *only* race that could be an Invoker/Evoker was human. Also, you had to have a 17 constitution or higher.
The reasoning was that no other race was hearty enough to sustain the punishment dealing such powerful magicks except very formidable humans.
I recall this because I used to play an invoker quite a bit. Just thought I'd throw that in.
Dornax
Jurdex
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The Raven of Wisdom
Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
The reasoning was that no other race was hearty enough to sustain the punishment dealing such powerful magicks except very formidable humans.
I recall this because I used to play an invoker quite a bit. Just thought I'd throw that in.
Dornax
Jurdex
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The Raven of Wisdom
Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
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Azralek Silvermist
- Sojourner
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Baltimore,MD
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B>Don't open illusionists to elves, if nothing else for 1 reason. Yuan-ti illusionists would NEVER be rolled up if drow illusionists were allowed, and all those that currently exist would be horribly sleighted.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm going to quote you again G because the more I think about it, the more I dont like what you said here (though I've been agreeing with your positions a lot lately.. been scaring me!)
The problem with your position is if it was adopted universally it would be bad for the game. If we upgrade one class, we offend another class. If we upgrade one piece of eq, we offend people who traded it away for something small, when now they could get more. If we downgrade an item, we offend the person who traded a small fortune to obtain it. If we upgrade rogues, rangers feel sleighted. Etc, etc, etc..
I dont think the gods should be constrained in making important decisions for the long term good of the mud by whether someone or other might feel sleighted.. That kind of attitude worries me. Ideally they would get it right the first time, but nobody is perfect, and when a change is warranted, it should be made regardless of whether it offends or sleights any particular group of players.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
<B>Don't open illusionists to elves, if nothing else for 1 reason. Yuan-ti illusionists would NEVER be rolled up if drow illusionists were allowed, and all those that currently exist would be horribly sleighted.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm going to quote you again G because the more I think about it, the more I dont like what you said here (though I've been agreeing with your positions a lot lately.. been scaring me!)
The problem with your position is if it was adopted universally it would be bad for the game. If we upgrade one class, we offend another class. If we upgrade one piece of eq, we offend people who traded it away for something small, when now they could get more. If we downgrade an item, we offend the person who traded a small fortune to obtain it. If we upgrade rogues, rangers feel sleighted. Etc, etc, etc..
I dont think the gods should be constrained in making important decisions for the long term good of the mud by whether someone or other might feel sleighted.. That kind of attitude worries me. Ideally they would get it right the first time, but nobody is perfect, and when a change is warranted, it should be made regardless of whether it offends or sleights any particular group of players.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Gromikazer
- Sojourner
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am
I understand your point Corth, and your actually right about that. Taking a absolute stance like that is very debilitating. Though it wasn't my only reason. I still belive Illusionists and Elementalists should be more limited then the other mage classes. Not only because in D&D (which has been mentioned we stray from all the time) it is listed that way, but also to preserve race integrity.
By race integrity I mean, from a RP standpoint the availability of classes to a race should be limited (Except to humans). I personally from an RP, (reading, literature, imagination) couldn't imagine a drow illusionist, or a drow elementalist. It's shoving the puzzle piece together, but it just dosen't look right. Many of my points can be transposed on elves as well.
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
By race integrity I mean, from a RP standpoint the availability of classes to a race should be limited (Except to humans). I personally from an RP, (reading, literature, imagination) couldn't imagine a drow illusionist, or a drow elementalist. It's shoving the puzzle piece together, but it just dosen't look right. Many of my points can be transposed on elves as well.
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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
On the flipside, Gromi...
Gnomes can be Invokers, Illusionists, Elementalists, AND Enchanters...
By that strain of thought, only humans should have that varied of a selection.
I still stand by my request to have one or both of these classes made available to grey elves.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
Gnomes can be Invokers, Illusionists, Elementalists, AND Enchanters...
By that strain of thought, only humans should have that varied of a selection.
I still stand by my request to have one or both of these classes made available to grey elves.
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Malacar - omg ymir!
In all honesty, I can't see elves not liking illusion. The ability to layer different visions on top of one another, creating subtleties that would take decades to create and centuries to unravel... well it's the kind of thing I think a well trained elven mind would enjoy.
As for drow, I have a similar viewpoint. For a race that loves subtlety and guile as much, if not more than brute force, I can't see them not enjoying the deviousness of having intangible foes and visions, only to encounter that one real danger mixed in with the hidden. The sheer chaos that illusions can create would make drow ideally suited towards illusions I think.
At least, in my opinion
Sylvos
As for drow, I have a similar viewpoint. For a race that loves subtlety and guile as much, if not more than brute force, I can't see them not enjoying the deviousness of having intangible foes and visions, only to encounter that one real danger mixed in with the hidden. The sheer chaos that illusions can create would make drow ideally suited towards illusions I think.
At least, in my opinion
Sylvos
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Gromikazer
- Sojourner
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B>Don't open illusionists to elves, if nothing else for 1 reason. Yuan-ti illusionists would NEVER be rolled up if drow illusionists were allowed, and all those that currently exist would be horribly sleighted.
Above and beyond that, I don't belive elves need to be able to be illusionists. Don't always have to eat your cake and have it too.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If this statement where true, there also wouldnt be any snake clerics, invokers, warriors right? but their are... a few of them actualy.....
there will always be people who like snakes over else cause they cant handle ultra... and need infra...
someone is always going to feel slighted its a game.. it happens.. look at liches...
the only reason i play a snake is because of illusionist..
the only benifit snake has over other casting evils is can see in the day light...
and how is a snake better at shadows and decite than a drow??!?
although i am a snake illus now i would drop it in a heartbeat for a drow cause snakes are that inferior
ask any evil. who has highest failrate on res? snakes...
give drow illusonist and yes you will basicaly have smart humans being illusionist.. lets be relistic thats what drow are.. evil humans.. forgive the expression )
best hometown ingame i have seen.
best xp spot
pre-zone meet spot post zone meet spot...
res spot..
fountain bs spot..
what is good to evil is dk to wd?? is drow to human? ... is illus to drow o-my...
and if you rolled a snake and want a drow.. do like they did for conjurers give you a limeted time 1 rl week? to convert from snake to drow?.... but only if 41 +??...
not many snakes would take it because .. whats the point of fold again.. ahh to move groups .. cant move groups if you blind...
y have i been opposite you lately gromi? :P *licks*
<B>Don't open illusionists to elves, if nothing else for 1 reason. Yuan-ti illusionists would NEVER be rolled up if drow illusionists were allowed, and all those that currently exist would be horribly sleighted.
Above and beyond that, I don't belive elves need to be able to be illusionists. Don't always have to eat your cake and have it too.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If this statement where true, there also wouldnt be any snake clerics, invokers, warriors right? but their are... a few of them actualy.....
there will always be people who like snakes over else cause they cant handle ultra... and need infra...
someone is always going to feel slighted its a game.. it happens.. look at liches...
the only reason i play a snake is because of illusionist..
the only benifit snake has over other casting evils is can see in the day light...
and how is a snake better at shadows and decite than a drow??!?
although i am a snake illus now i would drop it in a heartbeat for a drow cause snakes are that inferior
ask any evil. who has highest failrate on res? snakes...
give drow illusonist and yes you will basicaly have smart humans being illusionist.. lets be relistic thats what drow are.. evil humans.. forgive the expression )
best hometown ingame i have seen.
best xp spot
pre-zone meet spot post zone meet spot...
res spot..
fountain bs spot..
what is good to evil is dk to wd?? is drow to human? ... is illus to drow o-my...
and if you rolled a snake and want a drow.. do like they did for conjurers give you a limeted time 1 rl week? to convert from snake to drow?.... but only if 41 +??...
not many snakes would take it because .. whats the point of fold again.. ahh to move groups .. cant move groups if you blind...
y have i been opposite you lately gromi? :P *licks*
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Gromikazer
- Sojourner
- Posts: 244
- Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>I want to see drow illusionists. It would definitely fit the drows worshipping Vhaeraun
Reason no.1 why so many play yuan-ti casters is because they can't stand ultravision.
/Jegzed.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agree 100%, for drow illusions are almost second nature while backstabbing and using backdoor politics in menzo and i would assume dk as well.
By the hells we even have a goddess devoted mostly to illusions: Zinzerena
I've always been boggled by the fact we couldn't choose to be one.
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Zazyg Ark'Henneld
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Jesus Saves
Allah Protects
Cuthullu thinks you would make a pretty good lunch
<B>I want to see drow illusionists. It would definitely fit the drows worshipping Vhaeraun
Reason no.1 why so many play yuan-ti casters is because they can't stand ultravision.
/Jegzed.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agree 100%, for drow illusions are almost second nature while backstabbing and using backdoor politics in menzo and i would assume dk as well.
By the hells we even have a goddess devoted mostly to illusions: Zinzerena
I've always been boggled by the fact we couldn't choose to be one.
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Zazyg Ark'Henneld
-----------------
Jesus Saves
Allah Protects
Cuthullu thinks you would make a pretty good lunch
Let's be real this is a silly discussion. We all know snakes get shafted in every department while they should actually be better than drow when it comes to intelligence, agility and dexterity. Drow have no downside they are the best in everything. If they could be illusionists too, well, let's just remove the yuan-ti race then shall we?
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snakes need looked @ period.
drow are umber and nobody plays snakes because they suck, is only partialy right, drow rule yes, snakes suck yes, but people will and DO play them because they dont like/cant handle ultra
not just because of the class restrictions...
ask anyone who has a snake alt, its because they hate ultra not because they like snakes....
so people will always play snakes, this is moot
as far as i was aware.. yuanti casters were humanoid.. ie had ears/feet/legs... but the *forgot the name* obomination? were the warrior types w/o ears/feet/legs...
and those two had big differences in stats n stuff..
but the point being
would drow illusionist unbalence the game /be unfair to snakes?....
1) evil are not fair
2) drow illusionists would be no more over powered than a human illusionist
3) drow have disadvantages, ie blind in daylight.. if a illusionist is blind in the daylight you just lost half your useability as a illusionist... ie you cant transport/sneak or what have you
realy would like a serious reason as to why not :P
drow are umber and nobody plays snakes because they suck, is only partialy right, drow rule yes, snakes suck yes, but people will and DO play them because they dont like/cant handle ultra
not just because of the class restrictions...
ask anyone who has a snake alt, its because they hate ultra not because they like snakes....
so people will always play snakes, this is moot
as far as i was aware.. yuanti casters were humanoid.. ie had ears/feet/legs... but the *forgot the name* obomination? were the warrior types w/o ears/feet/legs...
and those two had big differences in stats n stuff..
but the point being
would drow illusionist unbalence the game /be unfair to snakes?....
1) evil are not fair
2) drow illusionists would be no more over powered than a human illusionist
3) drow have disadvantages, ie blind in daylight.. if a illusionist is blind in the daylight you just lost half your useability as a illusionist... ie you cant transport/sneak or what have you
realy would like a serious reason as to why not :P
You summoned me? Thou do wish to be enlightened? Then it shall be done.
By the hand of Oghma, shall I bless thee with knowledge!
About Psionics
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1978) (aka 1st edition AD&D)
(page 110 in the Appendices section)
“Psionics are various powers derived from the brain, and they enable characters so endowed to perform in ways which resemble magical abilities. If your DM opts to include psionic abilities in your campaign, they will be determined for humans (an possibly dwarves and halflings) as follows:
Characters with one or more unmodified intelligence, wisdom, or charisma ability scores of 16 or higher MIGHT have psionic ability. Whether or not this ability is possessed is then determined by a dice roll using percentile dice. Any score of 00 (100%) inidcates the ability exists. For each 1 point of intelligence aboe 16 add 2.5 to the dice roll, for each 1 point of wisdom above 16 add 1.5 to the dice roll, and for each 1 point of charisma above 16 add .5 to the dice roll (drop the fractions.)….
If psionics are possessed, it is necessary to determine the ability (or strength) and the number of powers the character has. Psionics in no way affect the performance of the character in his or her chosen class, except as possible behavioral modifiers.”
(Note, Psionics is not listed as a class, but instead as extra abilities any character class could have. Rolled one time only at character creation. – Caedym)
The Complete Psionics Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1991)
(page 8)
“Ability Requirements:
Constitution 11
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 15
Prime Requisites:
Constitution, Wisdom
Races Allowed:
Human, halfling, dwarf, gnome, elf, half-elf
(under the ‘Racial Level Limits’ heading)
“Humans can reach the highest possible experience level as psionicists. Characters of other races have limits, as shown on Table 1.”
(page10)
“Table 1:
Psionic Racial Level Limits:
Halfling 10
Gnomes 9
Dwarves 8
Half-elves 7
Elves 7”
So let humans be Psionics on the good side, and only humans. They’ll suck at it like they suck at everything else. Remember, humans can’t eat peoples brains, that’s Illithid only. Every human Psionic gonna just love sitting around all the time to med back PSPs. If you give Illusionists Worm Hole, and let drow be Illusionists, it’ll even out.
About Illusionists
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1978) (aka 1st edition AD&D)
(page 14)
“Character Race Table II: Class Level Limitations
Illusionist –
Gnome (with varying (5-7th) level limits based on dexterity and intelligence scores – Caedym)
Human – Unlimited Advancement”
(page 26)
“Illusionists form a sub-class of magic-users, and in most respects they conform to the characteristics of the latter. To be an illusionist, a character must have a minimum intelligence of 15 and a minimum dexterity of 16 (a high manual dexterity is required in casting of the spells used by this class). An important difference between illusionists and magic-users is that the former do not gain any experience bonus for having high scores in their required abilities of intelligence and dexterity.”
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1989)
(page 32)
“Illusionist
Ability Requirements: Dexterity 16
Prime Requisite: Intelligence
Races Allowed: Human, Gnome
The Illusionist is an example of a specialist.”
The Complete Book of Elves (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1992)
(Although this book does not say which classes the various sub-races of Elves can be, it does point out that the Drow (dark elves) receive the largest bonus to their initial dexterity roles, +2, and also have the highest Maximum roll allowed in Dexterity before bonuses are applied, #20. In conjunction with the version of rules this book is based in, one could be inclined to believe that this indicates the ability of the Drow to indeed by the one elven sub-race capable of mastering the Illusionary arts. If one were so inclined. – Caedym)
The Drow of the Underdark (Forgotten Realms, AD&D 2nd Ed., 1991)
(page 9)
“Drow are considered as elves, as far as level restrictions under Table 7 on page 15 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide…”
(Which subsequently only lists Gnomes and Humans able to be Illusionists – Caedym)
“The limits as priests and wizards, however, do not apply: drow are limited in advancement as priests only by the will of their gods (who typically end such advancement by destruction or elevation to demigod servant-status around 22nd level), and as wizards only by the availability of new spells to learn, tutors, and magical items or comonents to study and experiment with. Simply put, DROW WIZARDS HAVE NO LEVEL RESTRICTIONS…”
(This clarifies us that Drow can advance unlimitedly as a generic mage, or as a specialized: Conjurer, Diviner, Enchanter, or Transmuter. As these are the allowable specialized mage classes allowed to ELVES as listed on page 31 of the Players Handbook AD&D 2nd Edition. Note the lack of Necromancer. – Caedym)
Monster Mythology (AD&D 2nd Ed., 1992)
(This text lists Kiaransalee as a Demigoddess, and her avatar is a Wizard/Priest, further supporting the previous documentation that Drow can not be Necromancers. Strangely enough, under the entry for “Zinzerena” on the following page, in the drow pantheon, she is listed as an Illusionist/Thief. She was an assassin who used illusionary magic to aid her in her killing. –Caedym)
Demihuman Deities (Forgotten Realms, AD&D, 1998)
(Here Kiaransalee is rightly listed as a Necromancer/Cleric. Also that her followers consist of only drow females who are either crusaders, specialty priests, or necromancers. This text also lists Zinzerena as a Drow demi-goddess of Chaos and Assassins, who Lolth/Lloth defeated and absorbed her divine aspects into her own
Drizzt Do’Urden’s Guide to the Underdark (Forgotten Realms, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1999)
(page 89)
“Sshamath is ruled by the Conclave of Sshamath, an oligarchy composed of the master of the ten recognized schools of wizardry… Originally Sshamath’s conclave sanctioned only eight schools: Abjuration, Conjuration and Summoning, Divination, Enchantment and Charm, Illusion and Phantasm, Invocation and Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation. The first school addition was the school of Mages, for wizards whose research could not be clearly assigned to any one school… The tenth and most recent addition to the conclave is the school of Elemental Magic…”
(The text goes on further to list the actual Conclave leaders of the various factions. I’d like to point out here, that ALL conclave leaders are male drow elves, and that the necromantic leader is a drow elf vampire. This definitely indicates that drow NPCs can be of ANY mage subclass. Unfortunately, this book lacks the designation of WHICH rules system if follows under. But considering the book is fairly recent, it would not be impractical to assume it was indeed intended for either 1st , 2nd, or even the shortly released afterwards 3rd edition rules set, and therefor could be applied to PC characters. Also remember, that no material strictly for only 1st edition rules had been published in quite some time. This book also lists Sshamath as a Major Drow city, where as Menzo and Ched Nasad are Minor Cities in comparison to population and size. – Caedym)
3rd Edition Rules
(Basically any race can be any class as long as they have the ability requirements. – Caedym)
There is nothing to indicate that the grey elf subrace, or the drow elf subrace of elf would be opposed or improper for them to learn illusionary magic. Elves have innate Charm and Sleep resistances, which fall under Enchantment and Charm school of magic, NOT Illusion and Phantasm.
I personally feel the Grey Elves of Sojourn 3 should not receive the illusionist class, but that the Drow should. It fits with the more recent published material, and with their chaotic and deceiving nature. I furthermore feel that the Grey Elves of Sojourn 3 are long over do for their race only class, Blade Singers. I am aware that the current Ranger class of Sojourn 3 is effectively what a Blade Singer is, but they could still be slightly tweaked spell & ability wise, to be a tad more appropriate. I also concur that the Yuan-ti class is in dire needing of Int, Agi, and dodge cap uppage in comparison to the Drow.
Subject of Invokers
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1989)
(page 31)
“Table 22: Wizard Specialist Requirements
Specialist Race Min Req
Invoker Human 16 Con”
Unfortunately I do not currently posses the The Mage Handbook players handbook supplement. I personally don’t care who’s allowed to be an Invoker. It’s a fun class, keep who can be on now the way it is. I’ve always been for allowing classes to more races.
I’m still wondering why Half-elves are so limited in their class selections. Would half-elf rogues REALLY be that unbalancing? =P
-Caedym Shadowhock – Bard of Oghma
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By the hand of Oghma, shall I bless thee with knowledge!
About Psionics
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1978) (aka 1st edition AD&D)
(page 110 in the Appendices section)
“Psionics are various powers derived from the brain, and they enable characters so endowed to perform in ways which resemble magical abilities. If your DM opts to include psionic abilities in your campaign, they will be determined for humans (an possibly dwarves and halflings) as follows:
Characters with one or more unmodified intelligence, wisdom, or charisma ability scores of 16 or higher MIGHT have psionic ability. Whether or not this ability is possessed is then determined by a dice roll using percentile dice. Any score of 00 (100%) inidcates the ability exists. For each 1 point of intelligence aboe 16 add 2.5 to the dice roll, for each 1 point of wisdom above 16 add 1.5 to the dice roll, and for each 1 point of charisma above 16 add .5 to the dice roll (drop the fractions.)….
If psionics are possessed, it is necessary to determine the ability (or strength) and the number of powers the character has. Psionics in no way affect the performance of the character in his or her chosen class, except as possible behavioral modifiers.”
(Note, Psionics is not listed as a class, but instead as extra abilities any character class could have. Rolled one time only at character creation. – Caedym)
The Complete Psionics Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1991)
(page 8)
“Ability Requirements:
Constitution 11
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 15
Prime Requisites:
Constitution, Wisdom
Races Allowed:
Human, halfling, dwarf, gnome, elf, half-elf
(under the ‘Racial Level Limits’ heading)
“Humans can reach the highest possible experience level as psionicists. Characters of other races have limits, as shown on Table 1.”
(page10)
“Table 1:
Psionic Racial Level Limits:
Halfling 10
Gnomes 9
Dwarves 8
Half-elves 7
Elves 7”
So let humans be Psionics on the good side, and only humans. They’ll suck at it like they suck at everything else. Remember, humans can’t eat peoples brains, that’s Illithid only. Every human Psionic gonna just love sitting around all the time to med back PSPs. If you give Illusionists Worm Hole, and let drow be Illusionists, it’ll even out.
About Illusionists
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1978) (aka 1st edition AD&D)
(page 14)
“Character Race Table II: Class Level Limitations
Illusionist –
Gnome (with varying (5-7th) level limits based on dexterity and intelligence scores – Caedym)
Human – Unlimited Advancement”
(page 26)
“Illusionists form a sub-class of magic-users, and in most respects they conform to the characteristics of the latter. To be an illusionist, a character must have a minimum intelligence of 15 and a minimum dexterity of 16 (a high manual dexterity is required in casting of the spells used by this class). An important difference between illusionists and magic-users is that the former do not gain any experience bonus for having high scores in their required abilities of intelligence and dexterity.”
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1989)
(page 32)
“Illusionist
Ability Requirements: Dexterity 16
Prime Requisite: Intelligence
Races Allowed: Human, Gnome
The Illusionist is an example of a specialist.”
The Complete Book of Elves (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1992)
(Although this book does not say which classes the various sub-races of Elves can be, it does point out that the Drow (dark elves) receive the largest bonus to their initial dexterity roles, +2, and also have the highest Maximum roll allowed in Dexterity before bonuses are applied, #20. In conjunction with the version of rules this book is based in, one could be inclined to believe that this indicates the ability of the Drow to indeed by the one elven sub-race capable of mastering the Illusionary arts. If one were so inclined. – Caedym)
The Drow of the Underdark (Forgotten Realms, AD&D 2nd Ed., 1991)
(page 9)
“Drow are considered as elves, as far as level restrictions under Table 7 on page 15 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide…”
(Which subsequently only lists Gnomes and Humans able to be Illusionists – Caedym)
“The limits as priests and wizards, however, do not apply: drow are limited in advancement as priests only by the will of their gods (who typically end such advancement by destruction or elevation to demigod servant-status around 22nd level), and as wizards only by the availability of new spells to learn, tutors, and magical items or comonents to study and experiment with. Simply put, DROW WIZARDS HAVE NO LEVEL RESTRICTIONS…”
(This clarifies us that Drow can advance unlimitedly as a generic mage, or as a specialized: Conjurer, Diviner, Enchanter, or Transmuter. As these are the allowable specialized mage classes allowed to ELVES as listed on page 31 of the Players Handbook AD&D 2nd Edition. Note the lack of Necromancer. – Caedym)
Monster Mythology (AD&D 2nd Ed., 1992)
(This text lists Kiaransalee as a Demigoddess, and her avatar is a Wizard/Priest, further supporting the previous documentation that Drow can not be Necromancers. Strangely enough, under the entry for “Zinzerena” on the following page, in the drow pantheon, she is listed as an Illusionist/Thief. She was an assassin who used illusionary magic to aid her in her killing. –Caedym)
Demihuman Deities (Forgotten Realms, AD&D, 1998)
(Here Kiaransalee is rightly listed as a Necromancer/Cleric. Also that her followers consist of only drow females who are either crusaders, specialty priests, or necromancers. This text also lists Zinzerena as a Drow demi-goddess of Chaos and Assassins, who Lolth/Lloth defeated and absorbed her divine aspects into her own
Drizzt Do’Urden’s Guide to the Underdark (Forgotten Realms, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, 1999)
(page 89)
“Sshamath is ruled by the Conclave of Sshamath, an oligarchy composed of the master of the ten recognized schools of wizardry… Originally Sshamath’s conclave sanctioned only eight schools: Abjuration, Conjuration and Summoning, Divination, Enchantment and Charm, Illusion and Phantasm, Invocation and Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation. The first school addition was the school of Mages, for wizards whose research could not be clearly assigned to any one school… The tenth and most recent addition to the conclave is the school of Elemental Magic…”
(The text goes on further to list the actual Conclave leaders of the various factions. I’d like to point out here, that ALL conclave leaders are male drow elves, and that the necromantic leader is a drow elf vampire. This definitely indicates that drow NPCs can be of ANY mage subclass. Unfortunately, this book lacks the designation of WHICH rules system if follows under. But considering the book is fairly recent, it would not be impractical to assume it was indeed intended for either 1st , 2nd, or even the shortly released afterwards 3rd edition rules set, and therefor could be applied to PC characters. Also remember, that no material strictly for only 1st edition rules had been published in quite some time. This book also lists Sshamath as a Major Drow city, where as Menzo and Ched Nasad are Minor Cities in comparison to population and size. – Caedym)
3rd Edition Rules
(Basically any race can be any class as long as they have the ability requirements. – Caedym)
There is nothing to indicate that the grey elf subrace, or the drow elf subrace of elf would be opposed or improper for them to learn illusionary magic. Elves have innate Charm and Sleep resistances, which fall under Enchantment and Charm school of magic, NOT Illusion and Phantasm.
I personally feel the Grey Elves of Sojourn 3 should not receive the illusionist class, but that the Drow should. It fits with the more recent published material, and with their chaotic and deceiving nature. I furthermore feel that the Grey Elves of Sojourn 3 are long over do for their race only class, Blade Singers. I am aware that the current Ranger class of Sojourn 3 is effectively what a Blade Singer is, but they could still be slightly tweaked spell & ability wise, to be a tad more appropriate. I also concur that the Yuan-ti class is in dire needing of Int, Agi, and dodge cap uppage in comparison to the Drow.
Subject of Invokers
Players Handbook (Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, 1989)
(page 31)
“Table 22: Wizard Specialist Requirements
Specialist Race Min Req
Invoker Human 16 Con”
Unfortunately I do not currently posses the The Mage Handbook players handbook supplement. I personally don’t care who’s allowed to be an Invoker. It’s a fun class, keep who can be on now the way it is. I’ve always been for allowing classes to more races.
I’m still wondering why Half-elves are so limited in their class selections. Would half-elf rogues REALLY be that unbalancing? =P
-Caedym Shadowhock – Bard of Oghma
------------------
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
I’m still wondering why Half-elves are so limited in their class selections. Would half-elf rogues REALLY be that unbalancing? =P
umm do a search, look for a post by shev or kia regarding this. it basically says this.
half elves gets the best of both worlds stat wise. the are limited in class selection as to not completely obsolete humans or elves.
------------------
------
where ara you my rittle raabuuri
umm do a search, look for a post by shev or kia regarding this. it basically says this.
half elves gets the best of both worlds stat wise. the are limited in class selection as to not completely obsolete humans or elves.
------------------
------
where ara you my rittle raabuuri
I'd like to note that Caedym gives evidence that both Grey and Drow could be illusionists, but then makes note that he doesn't think greys should be allowed to... But that that is a personal opinion, and his data suggests that there should be no bias.
Just wanted to make a point of that. Great data collection, Caedym. *bow*
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Malacar - omg ymir!
Just wanted to make a point of that. Great data collection, Caedym. *bow*
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Malacar - omg ymir!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>I'd like to note that Caedym gives evidence that both Grey and Drow could be illusionists
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct, but only in D&D 3rd Ed. AD&D 2nd Ed, as contradictory as it is, basically says Drow can be any mage class, aka illusionists. AD&D 1st Ed limits the class to Humans and Gnomes only.
Mal, I really don't care if the Staff allowed grey elves to be illusionists. I was just trying to plug Blade Singers.
Guess it all comes down to what set of rules the staff feels is most appropriate to the Sojourn 3 environment atm.
You're guess is as good as mine.
------------------
<B>I'd like to note that Caedym gives evidence that both Grey and Drow could be illusionists
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct, but only in D&D 3rd Ed. AD&D 2nd Ed, as contradictory as it is, basically says Drow can be any mage class, aka illusionists. AD&D 1st Ed limits the class to Humans and Gnomes only.
Mal, I really don't care if the Staff allowed grey elves to be illusionists. I was just trying to plug Blade Singers.
Guess it all comes down to what set of rules the staff feels is most appropriate to the Sojourn 3 environment atm.
You're guess is as good as mine.
------------------
Well, as long as we're quoting, here's the entry I was referring to in the 2E Complete Wizards Handbook.
In the Illusionist School of Magic description:
<I>Allowed Races: Humans and gnomes are eligible to become illusionists. It’s not clear why elves
and half-elves are unable to specialize in this school, though some speculate that the same inborn
magical resistance that helps make them immune to charm spells also limits their ability to focus the
magical energy needed to create illusions.</I>
No, the above is not the sole reason I feel Grey Elves are not appropritate as Illusionists, and nor does this quote affect the Drow argument significantly.
------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
In the Illusionist School of Magic description:
<I>Allowed Races: Humans and gnomes are eligible to become illusionists. It’s not clear why elves
and half-elves are unable to specialize in this school, though some speculate that the same inborn
magical resistance that helps make them immune to charm spells also limits their ability to focus the
magical energy needed to create illusions.</I>
No, the above is not the sole reason I feel Grey Elves are not appropritate as Illusionists, and nor does this quote affect the Drow argument significantly.
------------------
<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
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