Yay, Gods say justice code will be removed!

[Burpie]

...in your dreams. Seems there are a TON of inputs about the lameness and illogical insert of justice. No god bothers responding. That's what makes most mad/angry about it. They ask for input, they receive it on call. We ask for input...*silence* Why?

The player base here is always seemingly recycled; I've yet to see a NEW newbie. I remember when I first started in November or so as a paladin killing in WD. Erevan responds to your petition, You are a paladin, why are you killing things?? *insert* >I didn't know how to play and I didn't know AD&D< I responded I was new and I thought/was told that the POINT of the mud is to LEVEL and gain crap and compare toys, etc. Erevan then tells me I've negative exp now...then silence. I asked him how to play/what to do *again a true newbie* - Sojourn is my only mud...silence.

Erevan has been nice to me other times, but the gods, **Insert** >If they were all taking the stance of this guy (me) is a f*cking moron, he's not worth my time (who knows) - maybe erevan was busy, maybe afk, but ALL the other gods,< there were 5 or so, saw the 'petition what should I do then?' question. Nobody bothered to answer my problem. I then made an elf, where Lilithelle was quick to help. If it weren't for her, because I was becoming very frustrated as how difficult being ignorant to exactly what to do, etc was, I'd have quit LONG ago. Lilithelle is damned near Mig stitch weld for an exhaust system. She's helped I'm sure more than countable people and kept my interest, as well as MANY others, very high. The gods at that point on that day failed me. Justice was 'kind' to a level one paladin, the judge made me sit there in jail for like 30 minutes rl time ( I tried 'quit' but the command wasn't accepted - Good thing I was patient, I've gotten at least 4 new players here due to me bragging) and 'first time warning' despite murdering a cleaner...or trying to, I don't remember.

What the world is to be gained by a person who is truly new to sit in this justice jail while he should be examining the splendors of the mud, as I thought I was..killing is the point of mud. As I see it, you have 'gossip/friends, mental retreat (if one's rl sucks, but their char is almighty powerful and in control, etc, - which leads to leveling...EQ is harder to get than levels, but I'm straying so much since Justice just makes me mad as hell. Please remove it..what's the point of seeing so many upset about it and just sitting there in silence? We all know the gods like Dugmaren and ..damn forgot the other sorry, have spent hours and hours making zones/coding..but most agree a really cool fruit basket sucks if you find one worm! Justice is a lame ass worm as it is. I said on another string that no COP walks in and ties you up. He's gonna get a big fat beat down from people like Toarn and them in rl...it's not real that they just *sprinkle fairy dust - poof! You are now tied up! If a dragon can't kick the crap outta Toarn and Ebgar as I saw them fight once, then certainly the RDF guards have no chance in hell of doing this!

This mud is very wonderful and is a GREAT way to relax, unless zoning or sitting in jail spamming unbind, worring that at higher levels you'll lose exp just for a no reason.

Nothing is more ignorant than the 'well don't kill' phrase/response. Who gives a crap about killing in town? You are as a newbie to kill east of town! God has claimed any mob stupid enough to be there deserves to die..the warrior, the cleric, the evil mage, etc. Get the point? Why the local make it alright to kill? See any logic? I don't! Most don't either. Toarn, Kaz, ...endless players find FUN in destroying some sack of fecal encrusted dilhole selling or spamming you following you all over town (salesman). Bar fights happen all the time and sometimes people get hurt. The DUMBEST thing I saw was 'xxx casts 'sunray' blah blah. A *mob* is blinded* You just witnessed attemped murder! DUH! No the hell I didn't! I saw assult at worst. It's not even battery...although the battery, assult w/intent to kill (very hard legally to prove) is impending of course, heh...

GET RID OF JUSTICE!!!!!!!!


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When a mob comes along, you must kill it! Kill it good!

[This message has been edited by Burpie (edited 09-22-2002).]

[Lilithelle]

I like justice, it makes sense. it adds depth to the game, lots of annoying things are in the game but they are depth and character. I don't want it all rule-less just kill and victory to the strongest. The thing about RDF taking down a level 50 warrior might be accurate. One day when the gods are inclined they might think to make it more complex so for known trouble makers like Toarn they'd bring 10 RDF and beat him till he's incapped, then tied him up, then revive him for his trial. But unless its something badly wrong I wouldn't ask the gods to make the change, I'm sure most of them have alot under their belts already.
Lil

[cherzra]

My opinion: justice stinks.

It does nothing but hurt newbies and drive off players, something we really don't need now. It doesn't stop experienced players from killing anything, and regularly causes anger and frustration. So it:

1)hurts newbies

2)doesn't stop higher levels killing in town

3)causes pissing contests and 'pkill' anger

I liked it much better in the old days. Guards would start pounding on you if they saw you do something wrong. Every so often, they'd KO you.

You could make a level check - if player is lower than 20, just KO them. If they are 20-30, 50% chance to KO them and 50% chance to fight them to the end. If they are level 30+, fight them to the death. Or just do away with it all, and make it like most evil towns - attack on sight. Honestly, justice has failed miserably and needs a fix like mentioned above.

[Lilithelle]

You might need a warning to new players not to kill in town but otherwise it makes sense, they see you attack someone in town, they arrest you. and that unconcious thing was infinitely more annoying!

[Ebgar]

justice just needs more reality!

[Bagalutas]

Justice does make sense rp-wise. It's "real" to see guards taking troublemakers into jail in towns such as wd, where order is a important thing. If you could just murder and kill whatever you want in all towns...Well, that would be pretty stupid.

But yeah, I think that newbies should be warned about not killing stuff in their hometown, since that will make the town angry at them.

[cherzra]

Well in theory it makes sense - but when it does not accomplish its goal except with newbies, hurts the growth of the mud and fosters resentment, you have my vote to yank it.

[Waelos]

Remove justice. It hurts the game more than it helps.

For those of you crying 'realism' would you like them to add code that kills you over time if you don't eat or drink? Would you like equipment to break down over time? Would you like your characters to die permenantly of old age? All are 'realistic things that would add depth to the game'. So please think twice before using that tired argument. This is a game, and we want people to play and enjoy it. Justice just messes with new players and drives them away and causes arguments on the BBS and in game. Down with justice!

Lost

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[Kerath]

I think it'd help if justice reporting mobs moved at few notches below light speed :P I've had a mob report me and tried to chase it... forget it, in under a second it's already half a dozen rooms ahead of me. It's ridiculous how fast they move. That way, just like in real life, there'd be a chance of catching up to them and killing them before they can tattle on you.

Or, if you're bent on realism, then make it so that you can bribe reporting mobs not to say anything.

[Donuktanam]

im a n00b burpie hehe..

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You stagger from a fearsome strike by the bloodlord,Ouch! another hit like that and youll have had it!!
FLEE
FLEE
You flee west
You flee east
The bloodlord sends your head bouncing on the floor..

[Ragorn]

I used to be all about some justice, but I see it was implemeneted to fix a problem it did not fix. Justice was designed to keep high levels in waterdeep from killing elite mobs for exp.. and y'know, that's about it. It didn't accomplish that, all it does is slaughter tens of newbies and get upper levels pissed at each other.

Burpie, if you ever see me online and have a question, ask me. I'm never busy and I'll be more than happy to guide you to where you should be killing, or heal you up or cast some spells on you. The only reason I wouldn't answer your question right away is if I'm AFK, so please don't get upset if it happens once

I've always been about making Sojourn fun for the lower level players in the community. But I've campaigned against justice for months to no avail. I think if Miax (the owner) were less busy with work, we might see some sort of official response. As it is, on a topic this major, we can't expect gods lower in the pyramid to come give us any answers that might not be correct.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'

[Lilithelle]

All people need to avoid trouble with justice is being told about it, I see no need to remove something that is working. Could be improved but the mud is only running on a computer, it'll always be abusable and imperfect. Say I think the real world legal system is like that too! And to not have justice problems just don't kill anything in town that walks upright, hrm although that kinda leaves dwarves in a gray area...
If you remove justice make me sheriff, i'm up for the job!
Lil

[Tilandal]

I dont mind justice in towns but It would probably be for the best if players were not allowed to report and turn in criminals. Player justice just causes resentment and serves no good purpose. Justice should be completly npc based to avoid all those stupid bugs/abuses.

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[Burpie]

If they wanted realism, they should allow you to hunt the judge at the end of the day, where he walks to his car (probably a BMW he paid for in the 'heads are worth 10 plat each barn). Then we could find realism...put a shiny cap in his ass hehe. What judge stays in his chair 24/7? Not real! haha. Let alone a judge that isn't bribable! I think there should be some kind of random option, have maybe marginal guards offer you to pay them or they break your legs...KO would be best..depends on the mob you were fighting. If you are fighting say a noble, you are high enough level to take dying in the first place if you were willing to risk it, but damn, these Rodney King cops, aka RDF, are bull poopy! I want my video camera. I want mobs to quit reporting, most nobody gives a damn in rl so it seems...Hey ma, what was that noise!? It's 'doze damn kids beatin up some old man!' Then they just go sit on the couch

[Bagalutas]

I didn't mean extreme realism, just nice RP sense, a goodie town like waterdeep shouldn't get ovverun and beaten to pieces by its own citizens, for gods sake. That could be understood if the town in question was Gloomhaven or some orc village, but making waterdeep a town where anything you do is legal and none cares a shit would wank the whole idea.

Then again, this is just my opinion.

[Guest]

In response to your question as to why gods don't respond to you (or others) right away, it is because unfortunately we work. I loved it when I was in school and able to be at the keyboard all the time, but the best you can get out of me and quite a few other gods right now is us idling and checking the screen every little while and then responding. While it does suck sometimes for the players, we don't get paid for doing this nor any other perks, so unfortunately you won't see us active every minute. We also unfortunately usually don't have the time to have long chats with newbies. I try the best I can to talk to people when I have time, but NHC is usually your best bet.

In regards to gods responding to questions, again it depends on the situation. I know Shev and the other coders try to respond to code-related quesitons, and other gods to their spheres, but try as we might, we can't always read and respond to everything. In addition, some issues have also been discussed over and over, and our position is fairly well known. Justice may fall into this category. While it is not a perfect system, it is what we currently have in place and are going with. That doesn't mean it won't be re-written/removed, but it does lend some challenge to certain aspects of the game. We can't make everything in this game easy, or it won't be a challenge and nobody will care. We try to look into all player issues, but sometimes you won't get a response as quickly as you want to, or even at all. There are only so many of us with so much time (and not as much as we used to have).

Erevan

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[Yarash]

I like the idea of a justice system, but my experience was very poor. After about a month I was a level twenty-something invoker. I had observed others fighting in town and though I might give it a try as well. Somewhere (the help files I think) said that criminals and other NPCs that are up to no good will not alert the authorities. So I found a ruffian or something and attacked it. I guess it wasn't a criminal because it shouted for help. A commoner ran off to get the guards, and I finished off the ruffian. Then I got scared and ran into a building to hide. That had no effect though, as the guards found me pretty quick. Then they dragged me to jail, where the judge ordered me to pay a fine...of 100p! At the time I had acquired enough money, I had 400p at the time. However, I had earned that money by dragging out copper and silver from the goblin caves and such. I didn't know what to do so I paid the fine, but I think that was far too severe of a penalty. 25p would have been a fair amount for me. It wasn't until around level 35-40 that I started earning good money. Perhaps at that level 100-200p would be a good fine.

Maybe that is a small amount for veteran players, but they never pay anyways. I always see them escaping from the guards. So my recommendation is that the fine be set for amounts appropriate for newbies, since it will be new players who are paying the fines.

- Mike