Dire raider Feedback

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Wobb
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Dire raider Feedback

Postby Wobb » Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:20 pm

I think the dires are a well rounded class and gives the evils something we have needed for a long time. Thank you.

Barskin is too high in the spell circles and the 8th circle spells (especially cure crit at 8th circle is useless). I noticed rangers have equally lame spells that high.

I would highly consider giving them something else in these circles and moving barkskin down one circle for both rangers and dires.

I've never played a ranger but from what i hear the damage from the rangers ranged-combat is far superior...true or myth? Maybe it should be that way but what is it then that is special about dires? If rangers are the masters of dual wield and ranged combat, where does it leave dires?

Or if I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me know.

Thank you.




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Wobb
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nolot
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Postby nolot » Sat Oct 12, 2002 4:50 pm

Firstly i really agree with Wobb

for addition many useless skills would like to be review like
trap
suprise
howl <-- suppose only to freeze track?
awareness
missile snare

thanks in advance


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Nolot --Bulleyez--
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wobb:
Maybe it should be that way but what is it then that is special about dires? If rangers are the masters of dual wield and ranged combat, where does it leave dires?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mounted combat, Rangers' caps at 20 I believe. Dires are like a hybrid Paladin-Ranger combo, getting the mounted tanking ability of the Paladin with the casting and damage abilities of the Ranger. It follows naturally that they shouldn't be as proficient in either area as the goodie classes.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:48 pm

Wobb: "Barskin is too high in the spell circles and the 8th circle spells (especially cure crit at 8th circle is useless). I noticed rangers have equally lame spells that high."

Cure critic, and before we had that, cure serious, is generally our most often cast spell. It's a lot more useful than you might think. It's ironically the other 8th, 9th, and 10th circle spells that are questionable and not the low level cleric one.

Nolot: "awareness"
What about this skill is useless? Even if it may or may not prevent backstabs, it still allows you to see things sneaking. Neither sense nor awareness can catch everything sneaking so having both is useful. The only annoying part is that it's applied when it sounds like it would be reflexive.

"missile snare"

Stand with a group outside of the scorpion king's room with the door open a few minutes. It's situational, but not useless in those situations. The only issue is that it's a token skill really there for just thematic reasons. It was really a monk and now a rogue skill. It doesn't notch or get high for rangers, I imagine the same applies to dires.

Trap is a long running joke between thieves/rogues and rangers and the coders I think. Surprise I have no idea about, the help file was changed since last wipe but it still never seems to do anything.

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You receive your share of experience.
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:39 am

ranger archery > dire raider. damn and here i was thinking dire archery damage was unbelievable awesome, a class defining skill, and left me no room to complain about dire raiders period...

cure crit is useful when you can't find a healer to exp or in a pinch. it'll be one of your most cast spells and its perfect where its at considering the dire trivial exp table.

barkskin could be moved down circles, but doesn't need to be. i think its placed in such away as to provide one nice spell in each circle. vig at 21, blind at 26, bark at 31, cure crit at 36, hex at 41, area damage at 46. its a good and logical progression. you wanna move bark down to 26 and blind up to 31? that wouldn't make much sense and would cause blind to be cast even less. as would moving it down to 21 and vig up to 31 would be.

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[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-13-2002).]
Calinth
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Postby Calinth » Sun Oct 13, 2002 8:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>ranger archery > dire raider. damn and here i was thinking dire archery damage was unbelievable awesome, a class defining skill, and left me no room to complain about dire raiders period...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if that holds true. I haven't bothered to ask around, so I don't know how dire arch skills compare to ranger's. Mine are at 95 archery, and 98 range specialist(I cannot for the life of me get that last notch on range spec).
Okay, just asked a dire, seems like theirs will cap at about the same. Archery damage is almost entirely based on skill, so I'd guess that ranged damage is comparable between the two. I wouldn't mind finding out for sure, though.


Cal
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:27 pm

doesnt really matter to me, i was just cuing in on what someone said earlier. personally, i can't comprehend anything > dire raider damage.

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Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Oct 13, 2002 7:35 pm

Yeah... archery damage is pretty sick..

And I still have not been in any zone where we've told the dire's to not shoot.

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Xebes
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Postby Xebes » Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:32 pm

Jeg & Wobb...
We have to do some testing of rangers vs. dire raiders archery damage. Cause I rarely see rangers using it, at least at higher levels melee seems to be doing more damage for em. How are dire raiders' melee skills?

Xeb

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Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:40 pm

Personally, I find that I'm better off to stick with melee. Yes archery will do more damage, but I have a lot more versatility when using melee. I can emergency bash, kick, rescue and still be effective, etc. I find archery to be too one-dimensional for my preferences, and the difference in damage isn't enough to compensate for me limiting my options in a fight.

Sylvos
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Postby Calinth » Sun Oct 13, 2002 9:51 pm

My guess is that dires don't get dual wield anywhere near as high as rangers, which would lower their melee damage. It's probably not that the archery damage is any different, it's that the difference between melee and archery is greater for dires than for rangers. I agree with Sylvos for the most part, even if I do some extra damage with a bow, it's far simpler to use melee. The difference isn't enough to make me want to screw with changing quivers, or keeping track of my arrows. Plus I'm as suicidal as most rangers, and actually think I can rescue at times, so having to keep switching between bow and blades as I rescue/get rescued is irritating.

On a side note, I don't think archery damage has been messed with much since dires went in. Evils wouldn't have seen the fluctuations in damage like rangers did. I know while I was still doing xp I saw a huge drop in ranged damage, so I stopped using it, by the time it was "fixed" I wasn't doing xp anymore and never really got a chance to see how it did and didn't go back to it.
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Postby Rivi » Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:14 pm

Evil group composition doesn't require Dires to tank. If it ever comes down to that, it's time for the group to bail. Hence Dires are needed there for "melee" damage. Can they do anything else? Yes, do they need to? No.
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Postby Eilorn » Mon Oct 14, 2002 5:27 pm

Does anyone else have objections to 'howl' being an 'area' skill? I hate not being able to just howl at the mob I'm fighting without bringing bystanders into the fight.

Eilorn.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Mon Oct 14, 2002 7:59 pm

Xebes: Since the missile shield bug has made ranged useless compared to melee in the majority of zones, there isn't much incentive for rangers to use it right now. Since there normally will only be one of us in a group, it's generally not worth the time to bother trying to pop a missile shield by sacrificing all damage until the numbers come up right.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:06 am

rangers also have access to great weapons to improve their melee damage output.

i suppose dires do too... but for 99% of us its gonna be ebony/engulfed/bs dancing shadows/basket hilted in primary and glimmering or gcd in secondary.

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[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-14-2002).]
Uwuw
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Postby Uwuw » Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:53 pm

oh, nice, finally a Dire thread...

Hmm Archery seems to be the skill of choice among dires (Why do melee at 1 notch every two kills or so, when you can arch and get 2 notches per kill or so)

My problems with Dires.

No Forage.
Innate woodcarve arrow and bow should produce better arrows and bows the higher level you are (same true with rangers)
Skill list says Dires get Riposte at level 30, no we don't.
Howl = useless.
Outflank = broken (I hit with outflank, even when it says i miss.)
Strafe = Never works.

Not to mention Howl, Outflank(kinda like circle) and Strafe are melee skills, and I don't see Dires being melee happy.

Archery gives too much exp for damage (I stress this, i can outnotch anyone in my group)

Awareness is cool
Suprise is cool
Cure Critic is in a good spot, as is barkskin.... rejoiced when i got my third bark today.

Dire's fit in most groups that i have seen, once they get high enough to arch the higher level zones and such.

Would be nice for a formula on archery ... we know that melee is die roll + hit/dam + skill... would be nice to know something similar for archery.

Need more +bows, I can count 4....
Elven longbow is half-elf elf and orcable. +2 hitroll

There's a slender bow that is +9 dex
Recurve is 5/5 and proc shattershield Human only! grumble
and the ever popular Warbow

need more!

Haven't gotten the chance to tinker with x-bows yet.


Gruhka Bloodfur.
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>rangers also have access to great weapons to improve their melee damage output.

i suppose dires do too... but for 99% of us its gonna be ebony/engulfed/bs dancing shadows/basket hilted in primary and glimmering or gcd in secondary.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's only one weapon a ranger can use that a dire can't, and not even all rangers can benefit from said weapon. I fail to see your point.

Twinshadow

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Wobb
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Postby Wobb » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:20 am

I'd caution the idea of downgrading damage on archery for dires. There are alot of mobs out there that aren't affected by arrows so using a bow is not a dire's only mode of attack.

Reducing archery damage would make me avoid taking a dire to a big zone group, that would be bad. I would hate to see dires getting turned down for zones because of something like that. Not sure if it would really pan out that way but that was first thing that came to mind when someone suggested archery does too much damage. From a zoning perspective it still does less than a rogue can do (correct me if I'm wrong) so at the current levels it would fit...yes/no?


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Wobb
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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:52 am

there may be only one weapon tasan (ignoring valhalla), but its a damn nice one and its relatively easy to get and it hits way harder than any of the weapons that dires can use. perhaps this was the point of outflank. i don't know.

Also, I haven't seen this missile shield bug rangers keep complaining about, nor have I seen any reason not to bring a dire to zone except the availability of more useful characters (which is any class other class except a 3rd troll warrior or a necromancer when you already have a lich). Dire is the last class I would add to a zoning group, and the first extra class I would add to an exp group.

More on SF and a possible tagging bug. We sat around for around 20 minutes last SFd trip trying to use a dire to tag wraiths because they wouldnt come. Herse from another trip was it took 1 hour and 400 arrows to tag all 6 wraiths out. They don't have missile shield to my knowledge being clerics, and at least one wraith was hit with a +4+4 arrow during my experience, so magic weapons should'nt be a factor. Someone explain why arrow tagging doesn't work on these guys worth a shit but sneak tag with a fireball scroll does. Haven't had any problems tagging from other zones though.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:17 pm

"Also, I haven't seen this missile shield bug rangers keep complaining about"

Have someone stand in the same room as a non-agro mob with missile shield (I normally test on the battlemage on ship) and fire an arrow with at least +1 hit at it from another room. Have the other person glance at the mob to see if there's any damage or signs of being aggro'd. Every time I've done this test, the mob's always stayed at excellent. I need to make a rogue spot for me when trying to lure mage mobs so it's not something I get to do except in very specific rooms and areas.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 10-18-2002).]
Sylvos
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:01 am

Here are two links where the missile shield bug is discussed. This bug still exists, and still makes me not even consider archery unless I get no globe.

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002000.html

Where I first describe what is happening.

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001873.html

Where what is happening is clearly displayed.

Sorry to hijack a dire raider thread, but I'm sure these problems exist for you guys too. Can they be fixed? Pretty please?

Sylvos
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:56 pm

I did the bug test last night, these are the results.

+1 arrows used since it shouldn't make a difference (it still interacts with the spell even if it can't pop it and results from +3 arrows haven't been any different) and I wasn't going to kill the mob to collect them.

< 643h/643H 187p/187P 125v/125V >
< > fire magi e
Your arrows are enshrouded in flames as they leap from the warbow!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at a cyclopes magi (slowed by 75%) doing little damage!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at a cyclopes magi (slowed by 75%) doing little damage!
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at a cyclopes magi (slowed by 75%) doing little damage!

< 643h/643H 187p/187P 125v/125V >
< > l e
You extend your sights eastwards.
A Carved Out Opening in the Cliff Wall
Room size: Huge (L:90 ft W:80 ft H:60 ft)
Exits: -W
A robed cyclopes rests here brewing some new alchemist concoction.

< 643h/643H 187p/187P 125v/125V >
< > e
glance magi
w
A Carved Out Opening in the Cliff Wall
Room size: Huge (L:90 ft W:80 ft H:60 ft)
Exits: -W
A robed cyclopes rests here brewing some new alchemist concoction.

< 643h/643H 187p/187P 124v/125V >
< > A cyclopes magi is in an excellent condition.
his body seems to be made of stone!
he is encased in killing ice!
he's encased in a shimmering globe!
he is surrounded by an opaque shield of magic.


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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 10-19-2002).]
Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:12 am

there may be only one weapon tasan (ignoring valhalla), but its a damn nice one and its relatively easy to get and it hits way harder than any of the weapons that dires can use

nu uh!
.....


Dires do fantastic damage with range weapons, ie, _far_ outstriping any other melee. I think that missile shield is required in order keep this in check in zones.

Dires/Rangers are the primary damage class for melee, so they should be doing quite a hefty amount. I think the limiting of other abilities such as tanking etc when using archery (as currently pointed out by the ranger cohort) is an excellent way of making the dires/rangers a class that can have a few options as what to do.

I don't think missile shield should be broken easily on the other hand. Having caster mobs (with missile shield) in zones means that the ranger's / dire's part in the group is even more elaborate / flexible and interesting.

Cure crit I believe should stay high, dires are a warrior class.

I would tend to agree that the amount of damage exp you can get as a low to mid dire might need some looking at.

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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:08 am

you can't tank while using archery. you get "forced into melee combat."

and the reason why folks hate missile shield, besides the bug, is every mage mob casts it. it is as low as a 3rd circle spell lasts longer than a lot of fights (3 minutes). I agree with your suggestion that missile shield has the potential to add variety to zones and mobs, however, when every single mage classed mob considers it as part of its spellup routine, it doesn't add very much variety.

Archery does do an unbelievable amount of damage, but the cost is partially balanced by comparison to rogue melee + skills, cost of arrows (especially the ones you can't buy in a shop) and maintenance (switching back and forth, keeping quivers full). Also, I still can't find a compelling reason to bring a dire raider (and probably a ranger) to any zone.



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Yasden
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Postby Yasden » Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
Also, I still can't find a compelling reason to bring a dire raider (and probably a ranger) to any zone.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can. Innate ranger_whine!

*nod me*
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:10 am

"and the reason why folks hate missile shield, besides the bug, is every mage mob casts it. it is as low as a 3rd circle spell lasts longer than a lot of fights (3 minutes). I agree with your suggestion that missile shield has the potential to add variety to zones and mobs, however, when every single mage classed mob considers it as part of its spellup routine, it doesn't add very much variety."

Two things. First, mob missile shield is not the exact same spell as PC missile shield. It's a much higher circle spell for them, which is why you don't see midlevel mage mobs casting it. Along the same lines, I've seen logs where the WD guildmaster fails his casting of it.

Secondly, another bug with missile shield is that ALL high level mage mobs cast it, even ones that belong to a class that ISN'T supposed to have it. For instance, the naga llusionist mob in MD can cast missile shield on themself, while PC illusionists can't. I've mentioned this to Kia months ago who said that it probably wasn't supposed be like that but haven't seen any sort of response since.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

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