GN quests - sabretooth mask

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Nekler BlazingWolf
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GN quests - sabretooth mask

Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:48 pm

ok, call this a gripe if you will.
I've spent a lot of time working on the quests in GN. I like the story that goes with a lot of them, so thats not what the gripe is about.
My problem comes from the stats on some of the eq given. I just finished the sabretooth mask today. I though great, a diffrent looking mask that not everyone has.
Then I id'd it and found out why. Its just not worth it to quest it. At ac5 +2+1 I would not wear it for the extra +1 hit over a spidershell mask that is much easier to get.
spider shell mask is ac10 +1+1.
Can the quests in GN be looked at and stats on items adjusted up? I'm thinking Sabretooth mask could be ac10 +2+1. Thats just 5 more ac, but makes it on par with the spider shell. Also some of the robes and such could prolly be looked at also and tweaked a lil.

Sorry if it didn't make sense.. on pain meds atm, so not quite with it. :P
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Postby Malacar » Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:19 pm

I think ac10 2/1 violates the eq caps.

Hell, scorp mask is only ac5 1/2.


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Postby Zen » Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>I think ac10 2/1 violates the eq caps.

Hell, scorp mask is only ac5 1/2.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure you can compare zone eq and quest eq that easily. Sabretooth mask isn't a huge quest, but it's not small either. Items should be worth the time it takes to get them, and atm scorps mask, wich loads every boot is better than a rare quest item wich takes perhaps months to finish.

-Zen

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Postby Malacar » Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:41 pm

I was one of the first ones to do/figure out that quest (*nudge Waelos*). It's not all that hard, just annoying due to rarity.

I don't think ac10 2/1 is warranted. Maybe ac6, but it's already a nice mask.

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Postby Waelos » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:16 am

omg who wasted glimmering chain!? *blink*


Lost

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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Thu Dec 05, 2002 11:37 am

Yeah, granted, its not all that hard of a quest compaired to erlan and such, but it is still a pain in that it uses a rare that never loaded until recently, and even now, its still rather rare.
ac10 +2+1 is nothing really. thats one more +1 hit then spidershell mask has and its much easier to get and requires less people and no rares.

Glimmering chainmail isn't even all that great since the breastplate from SF is better statted and has a prot. Don't get me wrong, glimmering chain is still a great peice of eq though. But if I had known mask wasn't worth it (yeah, I heard it wasn't, but I had to see for myself) I wouldn't have done the quest.

Kinda makes ya wonder how many other quests arn't done for that very same reason. Sure, there are 4000+ quests or so, but if only 3000 of those are working, and 2000 of those 3000 don't give rewards that makes them worth doing, people kinda get burnt out on questing. With the long uptimes lately, thats what I tend to do the must. I dunno about others, but I normall enjoy it till I finish the quest and then feel ripped off from time and items given to finish it.

And I dun wanna hear that I should go write a zone, cause I am. Granted, its not the biggest and baddest, but ya gotta start someplace, right?

/end rant
*pops some more pain pills*
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Postby Malacar » Thu Dec 05, 2002 1:02 pm

Well, as a tank now, I would say that if it was made ac10 2/1, I would heartily wear that mask over scorps masks, if nothing just for the ac bonus.

I think that would be a bit unbalancing, imo.

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[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 12-05-2002).]
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:13 pm

But isn't that the point? Shouldn't a quest item which takes a long time and a lot of work to get be better than a load-every-boot zone item?
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
But isn't that the point? Shouldn't a quest item which takes a long time and a lot of work to get be better than a load-every-boot zone item?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, unless it can be done with less people than the zone item. I'm guessing that's the case.

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Postby Gurns » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
But isn't that the point? Shouldn't a quest item which takes a long time and a lot of work to get be better than a load-every-boot zone item?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Should it? There's been a lot of posts like this on the BBS, and many folks are saying "If I spend a long time doing a quest, I want some kickass piece of equip at the end."

But there's product and there's process. I thought the main reason for doing quests was the process: One did them for the fun of doing them. Some folks like xp, some folks like exploring, some folks like socializing, some folks like questing. Different things on the mud for all of us. A mud isn't all about "the best equip".

There are also different "products". I thought another reason for doing quests was to be able to be proud that you'd completed them. You knew enough about the mud; you worked for a long time; you camped on, er, you managed to find all the rares; you'd gotten enough friends to help kill the tough mobs. And to be able to boast about it. And part of that is getting a unique piece of equipment, something few folks have. The stats are irrelevant, since the point is to just casually wave about that Frying Pan of Doom (acknowledgement: this weapon provided courtesy of Patricia Wrede).

I don't like doing quests: I find them tedious, arbitrary, and it actually spoils the "reality" of the mud for me, because the keywords and answers and what actions you can do are so terribly restricted/limited. So I don't enjoy the process. As a result, I'm never going to spend the time needed to figure out a quest, so I won't have any product, unique equip or boasting rights or nuthin'.

But I know I don't like questing. I guess my point is, if you're only in it for the equip, you probably don't like questing either (addressed to folks generally, not Ash, I dunno if she likes questing or not). So why are you wasting your time doing something you don't like?

If you're doing it because you're, um, acquisitive, then you gotta play it like any investment. You invest your time, skills, knowledge, resources. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. If it pays off, enjoy it. But not everything pays off, so don't make that investment again, and move on. Part of the cost of investing is learning what investments to make and what not to make. Part of the cost of questing is learning which ones weren't worth doing.

Or think of it like gambling. You go off to the casino, you plays your games, you'd better enjoy the excitement of playing. Because maybe you'll win that time, and maybe you'll lose. Actually, questing is probably better than gambling, because in gambling, in the long run, you'll always end up behind. Hmm, maybe the gods should change most quests so that you end up with worse equip than you started...
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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> Yes, unless it can be done with less people than the zone item. I'm guessing that's the case.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

idea: do these quests b4 u think you can comment on it

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Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
<B> [QUOTE]But I know I don't like questing. I guess my point is, if you're only in it for the equip, you probably don't like questing either (addressed to folks generally, not Ash, I dunno if she likes questing or not). So why are you wasting your time doing something you don't like?

If you're doing it because you're, um, acquisitive, then you gotta play it like any investment. You invest your time, skills, knowledge, resources. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. If it pays off, enjoy it. But not everything pays off, so don't make that investment again, and move on. Part of the cost of investing is learning what investments to make and what not to make. Part of the cost of questing is learning which ones weren't worth doing.

Or think of it like gambling. You go off to the casino, you plays your games, you'd better enjoy the excitement of playing. Because maybe you'll win that time, and maybe you'll lose. Actually, questing is probably better than gambling, because in gambling, in the long run, you'll always end up behind. Hmm, maybe the gods should change most quests so that you end up with worse equip than you started...</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

after doing most oznes in game there's nothing else to do anyways. i do enjoy getting other items that others can't get but it sux that they completely suck ass. mostly because people spread quest info though :/

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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:21 pm

Damn double posts.

[This message has been edited by Nekler BlazingWolf (edited 12-06-2002).]
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:23 pm

actually, it does take about the same number of people to do both scorps, and the mask. not to mention there are other items from scorps, and when you do this mask, there are no other items that come out of it for anyone else in the group.

oh, and gurns.. about your last comment.. I believe it already is like that.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:25 pm

This does not take a scorps group to do, mang.

I stand by my assessment, but I wanna put in:

Congrats on doin this quest. Not many stuck with it long enuff to figure it out.

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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 05, 2002 6:43 pm

It doesn't take a scorps group to do, no, but it DOES take months of work vs. a couple of hours by a group.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:01 pm

Time doesn't equal risk which doesnt equal reward, unfortunately...

Image

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Postby Yadir » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:32 pm

I've pondered this for some time but I still do not understand it. Why isn't this orange red and smooth like this apple? And don't even get me started on the differences in taste. They're both fruits - They both grow on trees.. and yet they are so different! How can this be?
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Postby Alomlim » Thu Dec 05, 2002 8:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yadir:
I've pondered this for some time but I still do not understand it. Why isn't this orange red and smooth like this apple? And don't even get me started on the differences in taste. They're both fruits - They both grow on trees.. and yet they are so different! How can this be?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yadir rools



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-Alomlim
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Postby Jurdex » Fri Dec 06, 2002 6:04 am

Well, here's the thing..

When Uthgar put in GN, those items were pretty damn cool..

Unfortunately, more zones have come in so that those cooler quest items (uh, elven masque comes to mind! hello!) aren't really worth doing compared to what you can get from just zoning.

It would nice if the more expensive items up there were made a bit spankier to balance out the cost. Mostly because GN has the coolest quests around. Image

Dornax
Jurdex

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Nekler BlazingWolf
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:37 am

Uh, yeah.. basicly dornax just summed up the whole point of my posting.

I actually think all all the older zones could possibly be looked at and the items adjusted based on how hard/time consuming they are to get. Sure, it might mean downgrades on stuff or it might mean upgrades on stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we are still in beta and balancing of things is still going on.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> idea: do these quests b4 u think you can comment on it
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have considered your idea, and rejected it.

Thank you for your suggestion.

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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 06, 2002 5:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yadir:
I've pondered this for some time but I still do not understand it. Why isn't this orange red and smooth like this apple? And don't even get me started on the differences in taste. They're both fruits - They both grow on trees.. and yet they are so different! How can this be?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plant the apple seeds in your back yard, take care of it for a number of years, until it grows to the size when it can bear fruit. Once it does, take the biggest, brightest apple on the tree, and compare it to the apple your neighbor bought in the store for 30 cents. When you realize what a peice of shit your apple turned out to be, you will understand what its like to do quests such as this.


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Postby Malacar » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:13 pm

My take on the time investment thing...

If you don't have to give up a piece of highly sought after eq, or incredibly hard item to get, over the course of a "long" quest... It should only be moderately powerful.

Yes, you have to give up an IC rare item for the mask. But it's not *that* rare anymore. If this topic had come up oh, say, 8 or 9 months ago, when IC rares were hardly ever loading, I would agree that it needs a boost.. But the fact is, they are not rare rares.

Yes, it takes time to complete, and yes, the quest is a pain in the butt to actually *figure out*, but that doesn't mean it should be the spankiest mask in the game. Which I think it would come damn close to, if it got a boost to 10ac 2/1.

I think ac5 2/1 is a pretty damn good mask honestly. It's maybe a fraction of a notch below scorps mask... And that's saying something, in my book at least.

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Postby Gurns » Fri Dec 06, 2002 10:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
Plant the apple seeds in your back yard...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What adult plants an apple seed, even an apple sapling, in his back yard because he wants to harvest the fruit? You plant it to have a tree, for the shade, to attract birds, because you enjoy raking leaves, because you want to help the environment, to sculpt the appearence of your landscape. If you're planting seeds for the fruit, either you're a child who doesn't know better, or you own an orchard.

Actually, if you own an orchard, you probably don't plant seeds, either, you buy the saplings from a supplier.
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Postby Daz » Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:22 am

as a former warrior, i find this thread troubling and amusing.

troubling cuz it sucks to see a quest turn out like this.

amusing cuz you people think armor class matters jack diddly.

gsay armor me
gsay bless me
gsay haste me
gsay bark me
gsay blur me
gsay displace me
gsay scale me
gsay embody me
gsay vit me

gsay ok . . . wait, i need 5 more ac . . someone have spider mask i can borrow?
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>Well, here's the thing..

When Uthgar put in GN, those items were pretty damn cool..

Unfortunately, more zones have come in so that those cooler quest items (uh, elven masque comes to mind! hello!) aren't really worth doing compared to what you can get from just zoning.

It would nice if the more expensive items up there were made a bit spankier to balance out the cost. Mostly because GN has the coolest quests around. Image

Dornax
Jurdex

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Downgrade the elven masque's ansi!



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-Yayaril
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Postby rylan » Sat Dec 07, 2002 2:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B> Downgrade the elven masque's ansi!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that possible? Its already beyond fugly.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 09, 2002 5:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
<B> [QUOTE]Originally posted by thanuk:
[b] Plant the apple seeds in your back yard...
What adult plants an apple seed, even an apple sapling, in his back yard because he wants to harvest the fruit? You plant it to have a tree, for the shade, to attract birds, because you enjoy raking leaves, because you want to help the environment, to sculpt the appearence of your landscape. If you're planting seeds for the fruit, either you're a child who doesn't know better, or you own an orchard.

Actually, if you own an orchard, you probably don't plant seeds, either, you buy the saplings from a supplier.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=metaphor

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[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 12-09-2002).]
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Postby Chandigar2 » Mon Dec 09, 2002 8:22 pm

I think what gurns is trying to say, though, is that the apple is just a small portion of the reward for planting the tree. Whereas in this case the quest item is the only reward for finishing the quest.

And YES, it can be argued that the fun of doing the quest is part of the reward too. Like the tree's shade etc.
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Postby Gurns » Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:09 pm

What Gurns meant was to take the apple tree metaphor, and show that it does NOT support the argument that quests should give rewards equal to time, effort, and lost equipment. It does exactly the opposite. Just as people don't plant seeds when they want fruit, so people don't (shouldn't) do quests when they want kickass equip. You plant trees for reasons other than produce; you do quests for reasons other than gear.

[This message has been edited by Gurns (edited 12-10-2002).]
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
[B]You plant trees for reasons other than produce; you do quests for reasons other than gear.[B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, sometimes you want a spell.



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Postby Tasan » Wed Dec 11, 2002 1:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
<B>What Gurns meant was to take the apple tree metaphor, and show that it does NOT support the argument that quests should give rewards equal to time, effort, and lost equipment. It does exactly the opposite. Just as people don't plant seeds when they want fruit, so people don't (shouldn't) do quests when they want kickass equip. You plant trees for reasons other than produce; you do quests for reasons other than gear.

[This message has been edited by Gurns (edited 12-10-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My family had 2.5 acres of land total, and 16 apple trees. We grew them for the fruit. You are wrong. You do not ever plant a FRUIT tree because you want to RAKE LEAVES.

Twinshadow

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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
<B>What Gurns meant was to take the apple tree metaphor, and show that it does NOT support the argument that quests should give rewards equal to time, effort, and lost equipment. It does exactly the opposite. Just as people don't plant seeds when they want fruit, so people don't (shouldn't) do quests when they want kickass equip. You plant trees for reasons other than produce; you do quests for reasons other than gear.

[This message has been edited by Gurns (edited 12-10-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
maybe you do quests for reasons other than the gear, but that just makes you a vast minority.
I don't like to quest. I hate hunting for rares that never load, trying to find some p.o.s. item that nobody knows where it is because it sucks so bad that no one has ever bothered to get it, and trying to derive meaning from the innane babble programmed into the mobs. It drives me nuts. I like god run quests, where theres active participation on both sides and you can effectively change the situation around you, that is enjoyable and a reward in itself. But programmed quests are just a shopping lists, go get x y and z and you get item a. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If you think me telling you what to do and you doing it is a reward in itself, then go fetch me a surtur, some lamellar boots, and a diamondine earring and ill reward you with the silvery war axe of incredible naivity. If the quest isnt worth doing, people arent going to do it, thats just the way it is.

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Postby Corth » Wed Dec 11, 2002 5:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
I don't like to quest. I hate hunting for rares that never load, trying to find some p.o.s. item that nobody knows where it is because it sucks so bad that no one has ever bothered to get it, and trying to derive meaning from the innane babble programmed into the mobs. It drives me nuts. I like god run quests, where theres active participation on both sides and you can effectively change the situation around you, that is enjoyable and a reward in itself. But programmed quests are just a shopping lists, go get x y and z and you get item a. No ifs, ands or buts about it. If you think me telling you what to do and you doing it is a reward in itself, then go fetch me a surtur, some lamellar boots, and a diamondine earring and ill reward you with the silvery war axe of incredible naivity. If the quest isnt worth doing, people arent going to do it, thats just the way it is. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This should be required reading for area gods. And if anyone wants to do thanuk's quest for the enjoyment value of it, come to me afterwords. My shopping list will interest you as well!

Corth

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Postby cherzra » Wed Dec 11, 2002 6:45 pm

"This should be required reading for areas gods"

/BEGIN SARCASM
Yeah really. They have no clue, their zones suck. The items they make stink. They deserve to be whined at. I too hate those damn quests where they make you look for strange items in odd places, and I especially hate it when the zone makers sat down to write elaborate and involving stories. What the hell are they thinking, spending months writing stuff when players toggle brief and only give a shit about the items they can get off mobs. Screw quests. You tell em!
/END SARCASM

I love it when players who think they know everything better, lecture gods on how they suck without ever doing something themselves. Stop bitching and write your own damn zone if you can do better, and then write the code to implement a different form of questing that does not involve getting items. Until that time, kindly refrain from bitching and pretending you know everything better.
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>"This should be required reading for areas gods"

/BEGIN SARCASM
Yeah really. They have no clue, their zones suck. The items they make stink. They deserve to be whined at. I too hate those damn quests where they make you look for strange items in odd places, and I especially hate it when the zone makers sat down to write elaborate and involving stories. What the hell are they thinking, spending months writing stuff when players toggle brief and only give a shit about the items they can get off mobs. Screw quests. You tell em!
/END SARCASM

I love it when players who think they know everything better, lecture gods on how they suck without ever doing something themselves. Stop bitching and write your own damn zone if you can do better, and then write the code to implement a different form of questing that does not involve getting items. Until that time, kindly refrain from bitching and pretending you know everything better.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, i posted an opinion. I never bitched, moaned, or told anyone they sucked. The quest code is fine, the zones are fine. Stories are good. Translating garble to english is bad. I cant write a new quest code, and even if i could i wouldn't want to, the code in place now works well and has for a long time.
LEARN TO FRIGGIN READ
The rewards you get at the end of these long, well written, incredible epic quests suck. What happens when the reward sucks? People dont do the quest. What happens when people dont do the quest? Your months spent writing a crazy epic quest with a brilliant story line are shot to shit, because nobody gives a crap how many empires had to fall to create the mighty 10 hps 2 ac prot gas ring of wasted energies.
Why is this the case? Because equipment that is easy to get is too powerful. If the eq available by zoning alone is already as powerful as any eq can reasonably get, then whats left to reward players for questing? The silvery war axe of naivity, and the ring of wasted energies.
You want me to write a zone? send me the programs to write a zone and ill have you bitching about my underwater silenced noground no exit 10 liches room with an undisarmable 1k hps trap on entry. But what my zone won't have in it is a quest full of 5% rareloads and 5 spanky items that yields a 2d10 2h misc nomagic evil mage only weapon.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby cherzra » Wed Dec 11, 2002 7:31 pm

Uhm the quote that I referred to wasn't yours, you just posted your opinion and that's fine. It was someone else who had to make the snide comment insinuating that area gods are totally clueless.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> maybe you do quests for reasons other than the gear, but that just makes you a vast minority.
I don't like to quest. I hate hunting for rares that never load, trying to find some p.o.s. item that nobody knows where it is because it sucks so bad that no one has ever bothered to get it, and trying to derive meaning from the innane babble programmed into the mobs. It drives me nuts.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you should not quest.

It sounds like a smartass answer, but that's honestly what was intended. Zone eq is fairly decent for a reason - so people don't HAVE to quest. It was stated a long, long time ago that imms don't want to force that upon everyone.

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Postby Gurns » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
My family had 2.5 acres of land total, and 16 apple trees. We grew them for the fruit. You are wrong. You do not ever plant a FRUIT tree because you want to RAKE LEAVES.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What, I can't re-use Thanuk's metaphor without explaining it, and I can't put a joke into the middle of it without explaining it? No one plants ANY tree because they enjoy raking leaves: it's just past fall, I raked leaves, I found it incredibly boring just like everyone else.

As to the rest, you'll notice that I exempted farmers, who are the only group of folks who do plant trees for the profit.

*shrug* It's a metaphor, it only holds up so long, they always break when you push 'em.
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Wed Dec 11, 2002 9:56 pm

Actually Cherzra, I would love to have new code for area makers.. and it already exists. Its called DGScripts and so far its for circlemud. From the little bit I had worked with it, I loved it. I could modyify anything with scripts. Hell, I even wrote a shop that would cast spells (if only trewe would have set the mob as being a casting mob in the code, it would have worked.)
This would also take a lot of work off Garg as he wouldn't have to write every friggin proc for every weapon and mob that needs it. The area writter could take care of that on thier own.
I personally would love to see sojourn with something like this as it would solve the problem of quests just giving the same items every time, or money. The could now give exp, diffrent items (thats prolly doable now with a little thinking), or many other things that isn't possible with the current code.
/end ramble
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Postby Gurns » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
maybe you do quests for reasons other than the gear, but that just makes you a vast minority.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nah, I don't do 'em at all, as I said someplace around here. I hate questing for all the reasons you do. Maybe even more than you do, because you'll do quests and I don't. I'm always happy to help other folks do them, just don't expect me to know anything about any of them.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
If the quest isnt worth doing, people arent going to do it, thats just the way it is. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I understand what you are saying, and where you're coming from. My point is: There are many possible reasons to want to do quests. To observe that most people who currently play Soj3 do them for the equip/power is accurate. To insist that this means all quests should return equipment on a favorable cost/benefit ratio does not follow. It only follows if one assumes that all changes to the mud must make the majority of the currently questing pbase happier. It also only follows if one assumes that the only thing that will make even current questors happy is better equip. I don't think either of those assumptions is correct.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
<B>
Originally posted by Tasan:
My family had 2.5 acres of land total, and 16 apple trees. We grew them for the fruit. You are wrong. You do not ever plant a FRUIT tree because you want to RAKE LEAVES.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What, I can't re-use Thanuk's metaphor without explaining it, and I can't put a joke into the middle of it without explaining it? No one plants ANY tree because they enjoy raking leaves: it's just past fall, I raked leaves, I found it incredibly boring just like everyone else.

As to the rest, you'll notice that I exempted farmers, who are the only group of folks who do plant trees for the profit.

*shrug* It's a metaphor, it only holds up so long, they always break when you push 'em.


Right Gurns, but the point is, if you want shade you plant a shade-tree, not a fruit tree. If you want some fruit you work your ass off for some fruit and plant a darned fruit tree, and it better be juicy fruit! If I just wanted shade no way would I plant an apple tree or peach tree, those things are a pain in the BUTT when they start dropping off the tree and you have to mow. Anyway, the whole point behind this thread is that peaches are starting to sound good right now, and it's the wrong darned season... wth were we talking about?
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Postby thanuk » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> Then you should not quest.

It sounds like a smartass answer, but that's honestly what was intended. Zone eq is fairly decent for a reason - so people don't HAVE to quest. It was stated a long, long time ago that imms don't want to force that upon everyone.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps i failed to state the fact that i am a powerhungry powerleveling twink who desires nothing more than the ability to crush my fellow mortals with a wave of my hand while laughing maniacally. If questing is a neccessity to reach this end, so be it. But if i cant be any stronger than someone who just does easy zones, regardless of what nasty zone or impossible quest i sit down and complete, then something is horribly wrong.



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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>Perhaps i failed to state the fact that i am a powerhungry powerleveling twink who desires nothing more than the ability to crush my fellow mortals with a wave of my hand while laughing maniacally. If questing is a neccessity to reach this end, so be it. But if i cant be any stronger than someone who just does easy zones, regardless of what nasty zone or impossible quest i sit down and complete, then something is horribly wrong.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh ok. Ok hrm. Well in that case, we need harder and tougher zones for you to bash your way through. These zones will have quests using the items inside, which will regrettably have to be rareload, but then can have better stats. Problem solved.

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Postby Savras » Wed Dec 11, 2002 10:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nekler BlazingWolf:
<B>Actually Cherzra, I would love to have new code for area makers.. and it already exists. Its called DGScripts and so far its for circlemud. From the little bit I had worked with it, I loved it. I could modyify anything with scripts. Hell, I even wrote a shop that would cast spells (if only trewe would have set the mob as being a casting mob in the code, it would have worked.)
This would also take a lot of work off Garg as he wouldn't have to write every friggin proc for every weapon and mob that needs it. The area writter could take care of that on thier own.
I personally would love to see sojourn with something like this as it would solve the problem of quests just giving the same items every time, or money. The could now give exp, diffrent items (thats prolly doable now with a little thinking), or many other things that isn't possible with the current code.
/end ramble</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with DGScripts is that then there would be no control over the eq procs going into the game. Every item is looked at, but at least one person knows all the procs in the game and can compare them for balance.

And from my work with DGscripts on a different mud, its not 100% reliable. 80% of the time a script will work fine, then suddenly it won't react properly for no simple reason.

And yes, quests which give different random items is very possible with the current quest scripting system.
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Fri Dec 13, 2002 3:21 pm

Eh.. yes, procs would will still have to be looked at as every zone has to go through testing just like normal. I personally would like to write my own procs for things, and of course I would want Garg to look at them after to make sure they work right and are within what ever boundries are set for them.
The problem with scripts on that other mud might have been a problem with the code when it was added. Obviously you can't just go patching them in here, things would have to be custom written for sojourn, just some of the idea from dgscripts could be used though to allow area writers more options.
Personally, I think if the coders here wanted to put the time into it, I'm sure they could do one hell of a job as we have some damn fine coders.

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