-stare-

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Pheten
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-stare-

Postby Pheten » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:19 am

< 1080h/1080H 118v/118V >
< P: std >
Dhurn flies south.
You follow Dhurn.

A Scene of Carnage in the Sandstone Tunnels
Room size: Mid-sized (L:25 ft W:25 ft H:10 ft)
Exits: -N -S
Dhurn Shadowforge -THUG- Elders of Netheril (Dwarf) stands in mid-air here.(Gold Aura)
A skeletal manscorpion stands here, awaiting command.
A skeletal manscorpion stands here, awaiting command.
A skeletal manscorpion stands here, awaiting command.
A skeletal manscorpion stands here, awaiting command.
A dead sorcerer stands eternal watch.(Gold Aura)
< 1080h/1080H 117v/118V >
< P: std >
The skeletal manscorpion sends Dhurn sprawling with a powerful bash.
The skeletal manscorpion sends you sprawling.
st
The skeletal manscorpion misses you with its beat.
< 1079h/1080H 117v/118V >

Sure is nice to start off every single fight on your ass as a PC tank now. What in the world inspired this change?
-mutter

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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 08, 2003 6:53 am

taking bets on Kia being responsible for this one

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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
Oyob tells you 'are you a god?\'
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Postby Kifle » Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B>taking bets on Kia being responsible for this one

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Look me up in game...i'll take that bet Image

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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

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Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:49 am

Sounds like a GREAT and GLORIOUS tweak.

Finally a reason to play the previously useless ogre warriors Image

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>
Finally a reason to play the previously useless ogre warriors

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My goodness, that's right! Maybe we can entice Blung back into playing (and posting, hurray!) fulltime.

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
rylan
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Postby rylan » Wed Jan 08, 2003 1:31 pm

Sure something was changed? I didn't hear about anything from other tanks. Or maybe its just certain mobs that have a change of doing that? Usually I just get attacked by an aggro, but occasionally it will try to bash me off the start.

[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 01-08-2003).]
Corth
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Postby Corth » Wed Jan 08, 2003 7:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> My goodness, that's right! Maybe we can entice Blung back into playing (and posting, hurray!) fulltime.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Please no.. I think his ogre has significantly more intelligence then he does irl... Blung posts were the kind that just made you feel bad about the human race...

Corth no mercy!


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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:01 pm

I think something did change - snow trolls were bashing me to start fights the other night rather than just attacking.

It was neat to see, even if it did finish me off once Image

-Sylvos
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Postby rylan » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:24 pm

Hrm, kinda makes tanks even more of a pure hp meatshield if mobs start off with bash now, since defensive skills don't work while on the ground.
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Postby Pheten » Wed Jan 08, 2003 11:57 pm

I've done alot of pc tanking this pwipe and this is like the first time i've seen any mobs start off with bash when you enter their room if they are aggro. Before they always engaged normally then bashed whoever afterwards, usually a caster.
-bleh

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Postby Malacar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 3:57 am

I don't care what god changed this.

Please change it back. This is retarded. We warriors can't tank as it is, and you have all our spell casters getting bashed left and right. I can't even tank 2 rounds of mobs without spells.

Please FIX melee and defensive skills, then make changes like this.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
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Postby turg » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:47 am

Malacar I wish i could agree fully, but I can't. I think this was long overdue, but it REALLY needs tweaking...I've yet to be missed with a bash and they don't wear shields. I've been told their % is about the same as ours, but it's not working out that way because im getting bashed every single time...It makes it so that the clerics dont have the possibility to even heal you....now i could just make an alias to kneel every time before i move a direction but thats not what this game was meant to change to, is it?

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Postby Sarell » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:30 am

I think that they are way too good at it. I couldn't take out a banite justice with sarell cos I just couldn't stand up. I should be springing out of the way of his patheticness with ease! It certainly makes doing things in runs very hard, too hard imho. I like the idea but the level of bash is way too high.

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Postby Dalar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:34 am

this really takes out the solo ability for casters but still makes warriors meatshields or bash fodder. now we need to bring 4 tanks to zone? Image

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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
Oyob tells you 'are you a god?\'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
<B> now we need to bring 4 tanks to zone? Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you just need to add Reduce to the spellup list for the whole group! Because obviously enchanters had not enough to do before Image

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
Pheten
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Postby Pheten » Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:02 am

No, you just need to add Reduce to the spellup list for the whole group! Because obviously enchanters had not enough to do before

Now just imagine doin that when warriors need to bash, fun fun. God just what enchs wanted, another spellup spell to worry about.

-tdr



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Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:53 am

Bring halflings and gnome tanks!



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jan 09, 2003 2:48 pm

What is this bandaid? Melee skills need to be overhauled, but instead of reducing the effectiveness of casters or increasing the effectiveness of melee it was actually thought to be a good idea for mobs to have no-fail bashing?

If you don't want casters soloing everything then why give them the spells tanks HAVE to have in order to fight anything? Reduce the effectiveness of those buffer spells and tweak melee skills up a notch.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 3:29 pm

Yeah, I only experienced it for a bit, Turg. From what I've seen for logs in the past 24 hours, the change is massively overdone. Mobs are way too good at bashing, and it's detracted even more from the fun factor.

Please change this back gods.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
rylan
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Postby rylan » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:37 pm

I was messing around with a dock master earlier to see what would happen. About 75% of the time I entered the room, it would try to bash me as its first action. And it usually would bash me, as I only avoided it a couple times. I feel sorry for the tanks, cuz they're going to die the first or second rounds of fights now regardless of what I do as a cleric.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 4:58 pm

whats wrong with adding reduce to spellup??? enchanters ARE the spellwhores .. if they dont like to spellup they shouldn't be chanters



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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
Iktar
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Postby Iktar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:32 pm

welp, i guess no more earth embod for reducded warriors!!

i guess its time for air emboded reduced hitter warriorz!!! RAR

gnome warrior with
dscale
blur
reduce
elemental air embodiment
armor
bark
bless

wheeeeeeeee
das a badass lawn gnome in action

[This message has been edited by Iktar (edited 01-09-2003).]
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ambar:
<B>whats wrong with adding reduce to spellup??? enchanters ARE the spellwhores .. if they dont like to spellup they shouldn't be chanters

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's attitudes like this that make me almost not want to play sometimes.

Read some other threads, please. Not all enchanters like having all those spells to cast. And just saying "well don't play it" is not a valid excuse. There IS a valid problem with the class, and it's been addressed by players. If you like it and are fine with it, by all means, continue to play as normal. But when a lot of old time players get together and agree that there is an issue there, it shouldn't be ignored or swept aside with comments like above.

And this isn't an attack at you Ambar, I'd simply like to point out the lack of enchanters around these days. I understand that the evils don't have this problem (likely because of the proliferation of Necros on evil side, so I hear). But there is a distinct problem on the goodie side... And without enchanters, the goodie side will come to a grinding halt. It may not affect you evils in the short run, but it will in the long run. And I am quite sure the gods don't want to see things come to a grinding halt. They want to see players using the cool new zones and toys, it's part of being a designer, seeing others get joy out of your product.

Anyhow... Back to work.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
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Postby thanuk » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:48 pm

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000988.html

Casters still die, tanks dont.



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Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'
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Postby Norek » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:21 pm

Whats the problem with mobs starting fights the exact same way that we start fights? Granted, I think that if a mob doesn't have a shield they shouldn't be able to bash that successfully, but I think they should use the same tatics that we do.

shrug
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Postby Mikayla » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Pheten:
<B>I've done alot of pc tanking this pwipe and this is like the first time i've seen any mobs start off with bash when you enter their room if they are aggro. Before they always engaged normally then bashed whoever afterwards, usually a caster.
-bleh

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

pheten i have been bashed many times entering a room, in all version of the mud Image



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Her Royal Bitchness Eye Aeturnum
Vahok
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Postby Vahok » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:47 pm

Well, I had the fortunate experience of finding the new bashing first hand. Personally, I think it sucks. In Brass, I got trashed in 2 rounds, stoned/blurred at full vit health. Gimme a break....do I need to be air embod and reduced now?

Basically, this new code makes everyones soloing ability reduced and the tanking classes ability to zone reduced as well. My agility is maxed, my dodge is maxed for a warrior, the mobs wear no shields yet I got bashed every single time. And of course, died every single time, and no healer could save me (and they tried, believe me).

Other points...how come I can't set a bash aggro...sure I charge at the mobs, but don't engage with a bash? Why do the mobs then? Seems to me, these guys are pretty freaking aware...

Also, I'm interested to see more input on how this effects evil warriors with there larger sizes. Do us meatshields reroll into smaller tanks (halflings, gnomes) to be zonable?

I feel us warriors got the huge short-end of the stick on this change. Sure, this may sound like whining because it is. Brass, who many feel isn't the upper crust of zones, pounded all three 50 level warriors who were there. I love my class, but something like this really makes me think about ditching it. I'm gonna have to change my title to Fodder now I suppose or have a hell of exp buffer to go zoning.

My two cents....

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Meatshield
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Postby Anaram » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:25 pm

Though I believe this change is a good change, since any addition to the mob AI adds an increase of challenge to the mud (good thing) just a few points form the perspective of a voker to take into consideration.

1) Even with all the buffs put onto tanks, they still go down after 2-3 rounds if they are bashed. I saw this more then once in just a single brass run last night. I don't know any way to fix this but it creates a pretty big problem for warriors who know if they go and zone, they are going to die if they are the first ones in the room. Dieing != fun for most people.

2) as a caster, I usually sit in the background casting. This is for 2 reasons. Assist lag cuts into the time I am casting and doing my job; two riposts and I'm as dead as the warrior who went in before me; and I can't risk the assist lag if I need to flee right away. The mobs bashing promotes a problem of auto-engaging which for me at least is a nightmare.

I've already died once due to eating a few clouds/tblasts then getting riposted for my last ~270 hitpoints. Disengage is not an option due to the heavy lag associated with it.

If this change is in to stay, please consider the following

1) reduce/elimiate the lag on disengage.. most mages (especially invokers who have no defensive spells) cannot take more then 2-3 ripostes from higher level mobs.

2) Let warriors/tanks have some kind of defense while on their butts. Though a problem with this is that melle would do less damage to warrior mobs if they are bashed, PC tanks would live longer when they themselves get bashed.

3) give reduce to elementalists as well. Take some of the spellup heat off the enchanters. Though reduce is a pretty long spell, comon, chanters have enough to do already as it is.

4) (joking) give barbs/ogres an ability to smash a PC caster down to size (ie a reduce skill) "Toarn bonks you on the head. OUCH that really did hurt. You feel shorter."

Thanks
-Ana
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Postby Corth » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:30 pm

Anaram,

I agree that making the mud more challenging is a good thing. However, making tanking skills even more useless does not seem to me the proper way to accomplish this goal. There has to be an easier (and more direct) way to keep people from rolling through zones like they're taking a walk through the park....

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:31 pm

Its probably my fault and the other elementalists that caused the gods to make this change. We've been soloing some pretty insane stuff (like Artimus in Demi plane). You could walk into a room, power word blind(pwb) mobs and flee out before they'd try to bash you so it'd be easy to blind most of the mobs and take out the few or one remaining unblind.

I hate to lose some of my soloing abilities but I'd rather have some spell reduced in effectiveness than have tanking made that much more difficult. Like feeblemind could last 5 minutes instead of 15 or whatever it lasts now, and pwb could be 2 minutes if its above your level and 5 minutes if its your level or lower.

Or mobs could be made to only bash 25% of the time on entry. Would make mobs like Artimus too dangerous for a mage to solo, but warrior would still have a chance in most zones if you send them in 2 or 3 at a time.

I don't know how some rooms in zones can be doable with things this way. Like the king room in scorps, I realize you use the rampager but if you mass die the first run without killing much that next run is going to be MURDER. Or what about the 2 sets of squads in the room leading to Seers? Or jot invasion trying to do 2nd gate house with 20ish giants. Even with 25% bash some zone tweaks might be needed.

I hope this changes soon, I'm afraid to zone with the way they are now. You can say bring more warriors but lately I haven't had an easy time finding enough. Often there is someone else leading something and your scratching just to get enough to zone.
Lil
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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:38 pm

With respect to Anaram's comment about auto-engaging cause of bash and getting riposted, I'd like to see a toggle or something so mages wouldn't even try to hit a warrior. As a mage do you think I'd try to punch a warrior who could parry me with a sword?! OUCH! Sorry, I wouldn't even try to throw a punch.
Lil
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Postby Anaram » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Anaram,

I agree that making the mud more challenging is a good thing. However, making tanking skills even more useless does not seem to me the proper way to accomplish this goal. There has to be an easier (and more direct) way to keep people from rolling through zones like they're taking a walk through the park....

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Corth,
I agree with you, thusly my suggestion of making tanking skills work a bit better on the ground. Albeit, it's simply a bandaid on a larger problem, but if the bashing is to stay, either the players need new tactics, or some PC classes need a tweak themselves.

As the mob AI gets upped some, Player skills need to get upped some. Zones are designed with old mob AI in mind, Thusly a room with umpteen !bash tracking 60% MR mobs in them. If the AI gets upped, some PC classes skills need to get upped as well to keep the game fun.

Sometimes a bandaid is needed to keep the wound from bleeding too much until a tournaquate(sp) can be made. Maybe this is just that. Who knows.

-Ana


[This message has been edited by Anaram (edited 01-09-2003).]
rylan
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Postby rylan » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:47 pm

I can certainly see the point of this change in terms of killing certain soloability. But in effect it makes warrior defensive skills even more useless because they don't get to use them on their ass. Upping defensive skills will have no effect on this situation. And its certainly not fun having to just spam full heals on the tank for every fight against multiple bashing mobs and hope displace and scales holds out while the tank is on his ass.

[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 01-09-2003).]
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Jan 09, 2003 8:54 pm

Reduce this by about 50%.

Make pc's take more damage from mobs.
Increase tanking skill importance.

This makes warriors much better, and mages will be extremely unlikely to solo anything.

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Klandal
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Postby Klandal » Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:17 pm

Unless there are multiple mobs that need rescuing against, you bash when able. But 90% of the time I seem to be doing the same damage despite it laying prostrate on the ground, whereas 90% of the time a tank is on the ground you see OUCH OUCH OUCH... Are the mobs just that much better than our tanks that they can avoid Crits on the ground where we can't?

Just another observation about the effects of bashing.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:48 pm

.

------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'

[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 01-14-2003).]
Pheten
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Postby Pheten » Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:54 pm

Its probably my fault and the other elementalists that caused the gods to make this change. We've been soloing some pretty insane stuff (like Artimus in Demi plane). You could walk into a room, power word blind(pwb) mobs and flee out before they'd try to bash you so it'd be easy to blind most of the mobs and take out the few or one remaining unblind

I find it very amusing that a fix to stop casters from being over powered has crippled the tanking comunity. All a caster has to do now is get a reduce and they can continue their pwb runs and solo ability, if a tank gets a reduce he cant bash anything. huzzah!
-tdr

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Postby Vahok » Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:21 pm

Well said Thanuk...took the words outta my mouth.

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Meatshield
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Postby Vahok » Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:36 am

On another side note, I got spanked again twice in CC and the group sure as hell didn't make it very far into the zone....wow CRing sure is fun.

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Meatshield
Iktar
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Postby Iktar » Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:40 am

Gnome warrior with reduce and elemental air embod.

everybody join the band wagon
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Postby Gavry » Fri Jan 10, 2003 8:56 am

Solution:

recline
[direction]
stand
[cast if caster] | [bash if basher]

continue as normal.

Old Bastard
Pheten
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Postby Pheten » Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:17 am

I think we need a comic for this one yaya.

Picture if you will, a hearty band of adventurers deep underground exploring the vile nest of the manscorpions. Spying a roving band of the foul creatures down the nearest tunnel, Corth - the partys illusionist extrodinair calls a halt to the progress.
After much preperation, protective spells are cast, plans are made, and the brave group prepares to assault the unaware mass of manscorpions in the tunnel ahead.
Charging down down the tunnell, swords waving high, caution thrown to the wind the fighters charge into combat! At the last second the entire front line drops to it's hands and knees and finish's the final 100 yards crawling while screaming and roaring their battle cries! Finally upon crawling up to the bewildered manscorpions, they stand up and a fierce battle ensues!
.
.
.
..........
-tdr

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[This message has been edited by Pheten (edited 01-10-2003).]
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:05 pm

This is a weird addition- now the mobs are trying to bash me instead of switching to me... which in the end... helps me solo!

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-Yayaril
old depok
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Postby old depok » Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:29 pm

Wonder if you send in a spirit into an agro room if the mobs will try to bash that? If so you send the spirit, wait a second, go into the room while all the mobs are sitting on he ground from trying to bash the inanimate object.

New spell up routine...

Leader group says 'Chanters (cause your going to need a bunch of em now) reduce your targets."

Leader Group says 'ok chanters switch reduces to enlarges"

Leader Group says 'Ok here is how we do this (and every) fight. Reduced tanks go in, everyone else follows (reduced of course).

Shaman and ilusionists Stun the casters.

Clerics silence the casters

Rogues trip the casters.

Chanters enlarge the tanks on entry!.

Tanks when enlarged take up bash assigns from rogues please.

At least we now have a reason to bring more rogues!

Time to go back to leveling my halfling rogue . He is going to own!
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Postby Malacar » Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:54 pm

I suggest you research reduce first.

It was either modified or tweaked a while back.

I've found it to only be useful for races that are small already. When I reduce humans/barbs/halfelves, they are still bashable, whereas gnomes, halflings, elves, and dwarves are not.

Reduce is not an option here. Removing this ridiculous code is, though.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>I suggest you research reduce first.

It was either modified or tweaked a while back.

I've found it to only be useful for races that are small already. When I reduce humans/barbs/halfelves, they are still bashable, whereas gnomes, halflings, elves, and dwarves are not.

Reduce is not an option here. Removing this ridiculous code is, though.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So this makes elven and dwarf tanks much more desirable than the troll tanks?

And this is bad how?



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:07 pm

Are ogres bashable by the same things?
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Are ogres bashable by the same things?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ogres are not bashable by humans/drows. And not even by most trolls.

For evils, this change turns ogres, drow and duergar into viable tanking alternatives to the trolls which had a 100% monopoly.

I really really like this change, and hope that it is not removed.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:20 pm

You've got to be kidding me, Jegzed.

This doesn't just hurt tanks, it hurts every other class. This code change makes doing multimob zones like TTF and Scorps truly fucking annoying.

Nothing should be able to bash as well as these mobs are.

I tested it out last night on level 20 mobs... Do you know what I found out?

He didn't miss a single bash on me in 20 attempts without a shield.

Unbalanced? Yup.

Lame? Yup.

Should mobs bash? Yes.

Should it be virtually !fail and happen every single fucking round? Nope.

The change has the right idea, but terrible execution. I won't even zone with it the way it currently is.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>
I really really like this change, and hope that it is not removed.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It also doesn't affect psionicists who notch Reduction up to the point where it gives <20" heights.

I have to wonder about the motivation for this change though, since it worsens warrior tanking ability a great deal and does very little to put an end to caster twinkery.

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