-stare-

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:32 pm

Since nobody seems to notice or care the glaringly obvious solution to this problem, ill say it again:

MAKE BASH CHECK AGAINST THE BASH SKILL OF THE BASH VICTIM.
Warriors should have bash mastered, and will not get bashed 90% of the time with this check.
Mages dont have bash skill, so bashes will land on them continually, creating the desired effect of the change.
Only stipulation is that multi-classed mobs need a bash skill limit of like 70 or so. a level 59 warrior-invoker shouldnt be able to dodge bashes from a level 50 warrior with a 99 bash skill.

Even if you dont like this idea, you have to do SOMETHING. Defensive skills on the ground, a skill to cover yourself with your shield when you get bashed maybe? You cant attack at all, but you cover yourself completely with a shield while on the ground and shieldblock most of the attacks you take.
I dunno, i think a check against bash would work fine, but i dont know the intricacies of the mud on the other side. But this change makes warriors a useless class. You will die every fight on entry, and thats just rediculous. The fact that now its easier to tank a dragon than 2 human warrior mobs should show everyone just how FUBARed this change has made the way we fight on this mud.
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Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'

[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 01-14-2003).]

gnerble · Postby **gnerble** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 8:18 pm

gnerble group-says 'Thanuk n reclined w//shield'

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delmair · Postby **delmair** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:27 am

First off, definately an insanely difficult "side effect" has become of this change. I can honestly say i think this was somewhat unforseen as to what the impact would be. I do feel pretty helpless in terms of being a tank now, as if paladins/antis and other sub-classes didn't have enough issues with low hp/defensive skills/etc to deal with, but now this. I agree with most of what has been said with changing it, however i see an argument that is just plain silly, and the argument is repeated multiple times. "How come the mob bashes so good without a shield". One suggestion was to give them shields so it would make sense. i disagree entirely, we need more crap gear on these mobs to clutter things up? just as an excuse to let em bash? nah. People would then be able to look at the mob and say, Yeap! he has a shield! he is a basher! Best suggestion i've seen sofar was a) make it a chance to start off combat with a bash dependent on the mobs level. b) make the success of the bash depend on 1) size of mob bashing, 2) shield or no shield 3) dodge skill of the bashee. c) this change would only make sense. there are obvious ways around it, with kneeling/reclining before entry, but that's utterly retarded that we should have to do twinkish little things like that just to survive.

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Delmair Aamoren

combatmedic · Postby **combatmedic** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 11:40 am

i gots a question, have they changed the backstab on mobs to do the same thing? Or has that always been there? Cause yesterday, i started an offensive spell on a mob, and he backstabbed me right off. Don't they have to hide/leave the room in order to do that? If they did, shouldn't my spell abort? Sorta sux to start off all my fights with a backstab and or a bash against me. =P

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"If it ain't broke, fix it until it is"

Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.

Yayaril · Postby **Yayaril** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:15 pm

Everyone keeps talking as if they knew the gods' intent of this change.

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-Yayaril

Jegzed · Postby **Jegzed** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:45 pm

Yes, I've died to this tweak, as enchanter.

But I still like the intent.

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition

Xisiqomelir · Postby **Xisiqomelir** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 12:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Yayaril:
Everyone keeps talking as if they knew the gods' intent of this change.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is simply untrue. Observe:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pheten:
What in the world inspired this change?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ashiwi:
What is this bandaid?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Anaram:
Sometimes a bandaid is needed to keep the wound from bleeding too much until a tournaquate(sp) can be made. Maybe this is just that. Who knows.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
I have to wonder about the motivation for this change though....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So in fact, the majority of posters have no idea whatsoever about the intent of the change.

(Yes, I am a hopeless literalist)

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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Myre · Postby **Myre** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 1:43 pm

has anyone in the glaring debate of the entire thread noticed the one "SURE" thing about threads like this..

Lack of staff participation or comment..

Point is...they don't CARE! and won't change it hehe..Someone decided it was a good idea..coded it...and made it so..then they claim that their good idea was based on a 'over all picture' that mortals can't see, called "game balance". Cause ya know, after some of us have played here 10+ years we wouldn't have any idea about what might work...we're just mortals!

Anyways i'm back to my meaningless mortal life...and honestly loving it...IGNORANCE IS BLISS!! i don't want to know what the 'big picture' is if it causes people to make changes that put into affect a rant like this.

Of course..on the other hand...would YOU want to be on the receiving end (i.e. be a staff member) of the hate caused by this code...eeesh

drive thru-carry on with the rant!

rylan · Postby **rylan** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:59 pm

I certainly -do- think the gods care. When there is a change like this that a large number of players thinks is extremely bad for a class (in this case anyone who tanks), they usually do respond. Give them a few days to talk it over with the other gods and stuff and get a response ready.
In the meantime it just makes me spammed to death from people wanting res due to corpses piling up. :P

sok · Postby **sok** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:00 pm

i agree w/ rylan and think gods are talking about it and trying to figure out what action to take.

giving mob shield bad idea. i think they should bash find w/o them.

giving them check againsts tank w/ good dodge and bash skill. great idea.

Dalar · Postby **Dalar** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:43 pm

i dunno the rogue change took like a day right? this one is taking much longer.

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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
Oyob tells you 'are you a god?\'

Klandal · Postby **Klandal** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 8:40 pm

Mogr leaves west.
You follow Mogr.

Main Audience Chamber
Exits: -E -D#
Mogr -=BloodSeeker=- Northern Star (Barbarian) stands here.
A yellow skinned humanoid stands vigilantly here.
A yellow skinned humanoid stands vigilantly here.
A yellow skinned humanoid stands vigilantly here.
*A robed githyanki archmage prepares to cast a spell.
A yellow skinned humanoid stands vigilantly here.
Daj flies in from the east.

< 871h/871H 125v/126V >
< >
A githyanki warrior sends you sprawling.
st
A githyanki warrior sends Daj sprawling with a powerful bash.
Mogr sends a githyanki archmage sprawling with a powerful bash.
A githyanki archmage snaps into visibility.

< 870h/871H 125v/126V >

A githyanki warrior sends Mogr sprawling with a powerful bash.
A githyanki warrior sends Mogr sprawling with a powerful bash.

< 870h/871H 125v/126V >

Gotta love it.

Sarell · Postby **Sarell** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:01 pm

Mobs that are near dead and normally wouldn't attack you now bash you. Very annoying in zones like CC where I am oft on cleanup duty. This is a bug?

I liked how it was before, some things wee soloed, so? It was very hard and by the best players in the game. Make a small chance of bash on entry, but current is just absurd.

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Gerad · Postby **Gerad** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by turg:
Malacar I wish i could agree fully, but I can't. I think this was long overdue, but it REALLY needs tweaking...I've yet to be missed with a bash and they don't wear shields. I've been told their % is about the same as ours, but it's not working out that way because im getting bashed every single time...It makes it so that the clerics dont have the possibility to even heal you....now i could just make an alias to kneel every time before i move a direction but thats not what this game was meant to change to, is it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

50 PC tanks land bash just about every single time (with shield albeit)...

-G

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Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'

Dalar · Postby **Dalar** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:47 am

50 PC tanks don't land every bash WITHOUT A SHIELD. Read Turg's post. "I've yet to be missed with a bash and they don't wear shields."

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Shevarash OOC: 'I never thought I'd long for Muma to be on OOC'
Oyob tells you 'are you a god?\'

Kegor · Postby **Kegor** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:28 pm

I always thought that the concept of bashing was way overdone on this mud and never really fit with the general concepts of fights laid out in D&D gaming and books. Sure it is remotely conceivable in the mind that it could be a non-stop attacking tactic, and we have all come to know it as such for the most part, but I am still very confused as to why this direction was taken in the first place. I would even daresay that bash could be removed from the game to make things more interesting and more consistant with reality as we know it. Honestly, what D&D hero would even attempt a bash, especially while they are holding weapon xyz.

On the matter of reduce. I always thought this was possibly the most ridiculous spell around in relation to the D&D concept. It's only real use is to avoid being bashed. I don't recall any instances in D&D gaming or books that involved being reduced for any reason, definately not because warriors like nothing better than to bash.

These two components of the game are, in my opinion, out of place in something based so heavily on D&D. If this game were to go in a different direction, other than making bash a major factor, or a factor at all, I think it would not only represent the D&D theme more accurately, it would open up more tactics and challenge for dealing with casters in general. It might even justify nightmare being brought into the game as well.

Extreme food for thought I suppose.

Nokie · Postby **Nokie** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 5:48 pm

I'm still trying to figure out where this major change is when I type 'news'. Can anyone help me out?

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers

torkur · Postby **torkur** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:48 pm

Last night was my first instance witnessing the new !fail bash on entry and I think something was broken when this was added.

The multi-class mob I was fighting..."twinking"... was honestly so busy bashing and scanning to bash every time it could, that it didn't cast.....no offense, no areas, no healing, no summoning, no dimming, no self spells.....

If anything I think this change helped me twink him considerably easier than if I knew it would do ANYTHING else on entry and takes a good deal of the fun out of many challenging fights.

Please review this new code, I personally preferred the randomness of the old code. It posed a much greater threat of death and challenge if people wished to twink things.

Pheten · Postby **Pheten** » Sun Jan 12, 2003 8:53 pm

Why not just get rid of the entire warrior class and subclasses while we are at it jaznolg?

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moritheil · Postby **moritheil** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 2:16 am

I am 99% sure they've just been tweaking the AI. Per Ythera's comment, I'll refrain from guessing here as to their motivations.

I hope lil's statement had nothing to do with the recent druid nerf.

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Toarn group-says 'my lvl 50 buffer has officially been Mori-fied.'
Shevarash tells you 'you want to mud marry me? *scratch*'

Kegor · Postby **Kegor** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 3:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pheten:
Why not just get rid of the entire warrior class and subclasses while we are at it jaznolg?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats not what I'm saying. Warriors play a vital role as tanks, rescuers, and support dammage. I just think the concept of bash itself as a skill is a stupid maneuver at best as far as weapons play is concerned. It doesn't matter, nobody wants to hear this anyways.

Klandal · Postby **Klandal** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:59 am

Jaznolg, I think what people are trying to say from the tank's perspective: try getting your 'vital role' accomplished. Try tanking when after entry, even with over 1k hps, you are dead before you can even stand up again. Try rescuing when you're on the ground bashed. Try giving support damage when you're back in your guild after pressing '1' to re-enter the game.

Yayaril · Postby **Yayaril** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:18 am

If it's any consolation, I agree with you Jaznolg. In all the roleplaying games I've played in, there's never been this element of knocking someone over and making them utterly useless for a few rounds. Bash is certainly a huge element of fights in Sojourn3 and perhaps that's a detriment to the game.

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-Yayaril

Gyrx · Postby **Gyrx** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:34 am

I agree with Jaz, but it would take some seriously revamping of the mud if bash was removed.

Vahok · Postby **Vahok** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 6:01 am

We should remove bash...we already know how overpowered tanks are ....

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Meatshield

Gyrx · Postby **Gyrx** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vahok:
We should remove bash...we already know how overpowered tanks are ....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*lol* I play a damn good tank and i'm not saying bash should be removed, but if you just think about it bash really doesn't make too much sense. But I have no suggestions to make it "more sensible" or whatever so i'm not going to critize or whatever

Marforp · Postby **Marforp** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 8:50 pm

Well for those who want bash removed a modification of bash is probably what you really want. Make casters who are bashed still able to cast. Instead bash has a % to stun. Additionally to make warriors more needed in group add the chance of stun when a 2h weapon hits or critical hits. To me getting hit on the chest/head/neck/arm with a freaking 2h holy flamberge would probably make me think twice about casting.

I think either of these two changes would make the mud more "interesting", but there would be a huge chance of nerfing mobs to be to tough or to easy here.

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Marforp / Sasdor / Kaf / Pofas

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:03 pm

Nothing about battle in a mud makes sense.

Duh.

If it made sense it would be closer to reality, and in reality we wouldn't do it because it would hurt like hell and dying would suck.

Double duh.

Ilshadrial · Postby **Ilshadrial** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:17 pm

I think the new bash AI is a step in the right direction, zones were becomming way to easy these days, but the problem is "since" we area makers have stacked soo many "followers" to the big baddies, it is pretty much instant death, I guess, right?

Also what I think is a lot of warriors in the game do not have a high agility which reduces the chance of being bashed, I have dodged several bashes as my grey elf warrior, I also keep my weight load very light, which further reduces the chance of being bashed, or at least that is what I think since Sojourn is based loosely on Diku Code.

At any rate, a new warrior skill should be immped to help resist bash, perhaps call it "BATTLE STANCE" or something, this would also prevent players from no fail bashing mobs all the time, but much better then instant death upon entry.

What do you guys think?

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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril

gnerble · Postby **gnerble** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:29 pm

Nokie - I have no idea why this isn't in the news. Maybe it was globaled once and that was enough.

I have played other muds where 'bash' meant 'hit the mob over the head'. The problem with bash is that it's such a staple for PCs because spell damage is so high. We don't really do it so we can do 1.5 time damage (or whatever) to the mob on the ground. I fail one trip, mob will coldshield itself, and I will die before I get up. Warrior fails bash, mob casts area spell x with a chance to do 300 damage. Garrote = trip = bash = size limitations/can't do it in certain terrain/sometimes fails.

Wouldn't it be fun if spell damage wasn't the end of the world!?

Would love to see this placed in the news. It's painful to play and not have an update to the game.

As for the change to bash to make zones harder... Come on. Do you think the playerbase has dropped 50% because the zones are too easy?

Couldn't be the frusterating changes, or the XP tables, or the lack of god response, or the general risk vs. reward vs. time spent.

Someone please respond and tell me "If you don't like it, play somewhere else!" I'd like to respond to that too.

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Malacar · Postby **Malacar** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:51 pm

Good idea, Ilshad... Except for one thing.

Warriors can't tank without spells.

If mobs are continuously nofail bashing casters (its SO close to nofail I wanna puke) without shields, then we warriors won't live long. So like I said earlier... Until melee is fixed and tanking is more balanced, this change is not viable. It should be removed until such a time as warriors can live for more than 6 hits against a mob with no spells up from 4 casters.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'

Vahok · Postby **Vahok** » Mon Jan 13, 2003 11:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Nothing about battle in a mud makes sense.

Duh.

If it made sense it would be closer to reality, and in reality we wouldn't do it because it would hurt like hell and dying would suck.

Double duh.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't agree more. Do clerics need holy symbols? Do casters need spell components? Do thieves need to remove shiny armor to hide?

Basically, these changes took a "weaker" one-dimensional class, and made it worse in my opinion. We are spellwhores as is, now we gonna pray on every fight that we don't die. Should a dragon be less fearsome than 2 warrior class mobs? Eventually, someone will figure out a gaming solution to this problem (ie. reduce, air embod, etc.)...but it doesn't address the real problem. Do warriors really need more spells to be zonable? Should I have to spend two days to undo the damage from one single zone?

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Meatshield

-stare-

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