- TorilMUD's Icon Bidding Announcement -
- TorilMUD's Icon Bidding Announcement -
Players of TorilMUD! We have an opportunity to bid on an icon for the new CMud/Zmud client by Zuggsoft. Most of you probably know what Cmud is, but just in case you don't, here's some info. Cmud is the newest version of Zugg's Zmud client; a heavily downloaded widely used program with the ability to do just about anything you need it to including but not limited to: triggers, aliases, mapping, specialized settings, variables, pathing, macros and more. To find out about it on your own, please visit www.zuggsoft.com and read up all about the past of Cmud/Zmud and its future.
If you've used a newer version of Zmud you've probably noticed that it comes with icons for 10 pre-loaded MUDs. These icons are seen by everyone who downloads Zmud (approximately 90,000 people last year alone) and offer great exposure for any MUD. These icons are obtained via auction on a yearly basis, with the 10 icons going to the top 10 bidders. The lowest bid is currently at 1500 USD and should stay close to that number (if past years are any indication.) The auction for all icons ends on Feb. 22nd with cost due upon win.
What we are asking of our players: If you are able, donate as much as you see fit for our cause. We have several of the staff already interested in donating, including the Forgers. Be aware that this is one of the single most useful ways to advertise our mud to those people who already enjoy mudding as a hobby. Potentially, this could yield us hundreds of new players.
How you donate: Our main page has a link to our Paypal account or, click here. All you need is a checking account or credit card and a valid email address to do it. If you do not have those things and wish to deal in cash (US currency only) special arrangements can be made, but we prefer to use Paypal for safety and quality reasons.
When do you donate: As soon as possible!!! The auction ends in a little over 10 days, and we cannot make a bid until the funds are in our Paypal account.
What happens if we win the bid: We'll celebrate! We'll not only have our icon that thousands of people will see every day, but we'll put your name on a plaque, in-game. The top 5 contributors will have the name of their character etched into TorilMUD history forever, even though the icon slot would only be ours for a year.
What happens if we lose the bid: In the event that we do not win a spot, we will refund all the contributions minus the cost associated with donating through Paypal, unless on an individual basis, the contributor wishes the donation to be permanent. If you wish your contribution to be either permanent or refunded, please remark it so. IF YOU DO NOT MARK YOUR CONTRIBUTION, IT WILL BE ASSUMED YOU WISH IT TO BE PERMANENT.
A note to all contributors: There is no special treatment or favoritism for any sort of donation. You could give one dollar or one hundred thousand dollars and your contribution amount would remain private, and separate from all in-game dealings. Only forgers have access to information regarding any donation.
On behalf of the entire TorilMUD staff, good luck to us all and thank you in advance.
If you've used a newer version of Zmud you've probably noticed that it comes with icons for 10 pre-loaded MUDs. These icons are seen by everyone who downloads Zmud (approximately 90,000 people last year alone) and offer great exposure for any MUD. These icons are obtained via auction on a yearly basis, with the 10 icons going to the top 10 bidders. The lowest bid is currently at 1500 USD and should stay close to that number (if past years are any indication.) The auction for all icons ends on Feb. 22nd with cost due upon win.
What we are asking of our players: If you are able, donate as much as you see fit for our cause. We have several of the staff already interested in donating, including the Forgers. Be aware that this is one of the single most useful ways to advertise our mud to those people who already enjoy mudding as a hobby. Potentially, this could yield us hundreds of new players.
How you donate: Our main page has a link to our Paypal account or, click here. All you need is a checking account or credit card and a valid email address to do it. If you do not have those things and wish to deal in cash (US currency only) special arrangements can be made, but we prefer to use Paypal for safety and quality reasons.
When do you donate: As soon as possible!!! The auction ends in a little over 10 days, and we cannot make a bid until the funds are in our Paypal account.
What happens if we win the bid: We'll celebrate! We'll not only have our icon that thousands of people will see every day, but we'll put your name on a plaque, in-game. The top 5 contributors will have the name of their character etched into TorilMUD history forever, even though the icon slot would only be ours for a year.
What happens if we lose the bid: In the event that we do not win a spot, we will refund all the contributions minus the cost associated with donating through Paypal, unless on an individual basis, the contributor wishes the donation to be permanent. If you wish your contribution to be either permanent or refunded, please remark it so. IF YOU DO NOT MARK YOUR CONTRIBUTION, IT WILL BE ASSUMED YOU WISH IT TO BE PERMANENT.
A note to all contributors: There is no special treatment or favoritism for any sort of donation. You could give one dollar or one hundred thousand dollars and your contribution amount would remain private, and separate from all in-game dealings. Only forgers have access to information regarding any donation.
On behalf of the entire TorilMUD staff, good luck to us all and thank you in advance.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
This is all well and good, but I will continue to maintain that improving the mud should be a far more important priority than paid advertising. Judging by admittedly anecdotal evidence, the newbie retention rate is horrid. This advertising will be more valuable if you can figure out a way to hook newbies to the game.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
True, but this is a virtually zero-effort initiative with the potential for big gains. Improving the MUD is a time-resticted task, this has almost no bearing on the level of effort the staff can spend working on the game.
I see nothing wrong with it, and the potential for great things.
I see nothing wrong with it, and the potential for great things.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
They are improving the mud, Corth .. Shev et al are pouring great deals of their time into toril 2.0 unless you havent heard of it yet .. this particular Zugg/advertising item is time sensitive and needs to be taken care of before the deadline .. I love your sense of humor when it pops out but your negativity really gets old sometimes ..
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."
-Italian Proverb
-Italian Proverb
Shar,
Do you guys have a target dollar amount that you're shooting for? Is there any idea how much $$ the past winners of this bidding process have paid to get their icon on the opening screen? If, for some reason, you don't feel comfortable discussing this in an open forum feel free to PM me here or mmail me on the MUD, or peti me ingame (Birile, Sunlireal, Biron, Iqhas, Yelutrel).
Thanks,
Steve
Do you guys have a target dollar amount that you're shooting for? Is there any idea how much $$ the past winners of this bidding process have paid to get their icon on the opening screen? If, for some reason, you don't feel comfortable discussing this in an open forum feel free to PM me here or mmail me on the MUD, or peti me ingame (Birile, Sunlireal, Biron, Iqhas, Yelutrel).
Thanks,
Steve
Let me preface this by saying I think it's a good idea in general.
The question is: When will 2.0 be ready and implemented? I know you guys are working hard on it, but I also think it's a mistake to draw large crowds to the MUD before it's at it's best. If 2.0 will be ready in 6 months, it's probably just barely worth it to bid... if it's going to take longer we should just wait until next year when the changes are in, tested, balanced and we have the best shot of retaining new players.
That's my take anyway...
The question is: When will 2.0 be ready and implemented? I know you guys are working hard on it, but I also think it's a mistake to draw large crowds to the MUD before it's at it's best. If 2.0 will be ready in 6 months, it's probably just barely worth it to bid... if it's going to take longer we should just wait until next year when the changes are in, tested, balanced and we have the best shot of retaining new players.
That's my take anyway...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ambar,
Maybe your looking at my comment more broadly than I intended. I think paid advertising is just fine. I do plenty of it in my own business. The problem is that if you don't convert these people who respond to the advertising into customers then the advertising is worse than useless.. its a waste of money.
Your point about this being time-sensitive is well taken. If the powers that be have well formulated plans to increase the newbie retention rate, then I can see how paying for the advertising in advance is justified.
And to the person who asked if I plan to donate.. absoutely not. Based upon experience, I do not have very much confidence that our current set of gods can do what is necessary to imrpove the mud to the point that the advertising will be effective. So maybe I am a little bit negative.
Corth
Maybe your looking at my comment more broadly than I intended. I think paid advertising is just fine. I do plenty of it in my own business. The problem is that if you don't convert these people who respond to the advertising into customers then the advertising is worse than useless.. its a waste of money.
Your point about this being time-sensitive is well taken. If the powers that be have well formulated plans to increase the newbie retention rate, then I can see how paying for the advertising in advance is justified.
And to the person who asked if I plan to donate.. absoutely not. Based upon experience, I do not have very much confidence that our current set of gods can do what is necessary to imrpove the mud to the point that the advertising will be effective. So maybe I am a little bit negative.
Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
...
Last edited by Ragorn on Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Can someone give us a running total so far?
Even though I am not playing much, I did just come into a fat sack of cash and might be willing to part with it for the icon.......
Hey, even Kesena's cool with it! Woo hoo!
Even though I am not playing much, I did just come into a fat sack of cash and might be willing to part with it for the icon.......
Hey, even Kesena's cool with it! Woo hoo!
To quack or not to quack...
Cah GCC: 'children are fun to piss off, because they can't do anything about it, until they are old enough to hold a gun'
Cah GCC: 'children are fun to piss off, because they can't do anything about it, until they are old enough to hold a gun'
-
- Sojourner
- Posts: 3923
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Waterdeep
I wouldn't advertise a junk car until it was at least cleaned and fixed up.
Not unwilling, but to be frank, I haven't seen the progress to justify a *sizable* donation (of course, I still play here and there are expenses with maintaining a server, etc).
I will donate a small bite, as this is something I should have done a long time ago, but the bite would be much _bigger_ for the purpose of advertising if, as a player, I could have seen some progress against the performance metric of player retention, or actual personal interest in 'playing' the game.
Not unwilling, but to be frank, I haven't seen the progress to justify a *sizable* donation (of course, I still play here and there are expenses with maintaining a server, etc).
I will donate a small bite, as this is something I should have done a long time ago, but the bite would be much _bigger_ for the purpose of advertising if, as a player, I could have seen some progress against the performance metric of player retention, or actual personal interest in 'playing' the game.
Teflor does. Teflor does not.
Update:
We have been given very generous donations by a handful of players. To be honest, we were shocked at the level of donation coming from the player base! Personally, I found myself very overwhelmed and emotional at the turn out. Thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far.
We will only be needing approximately another $500 more to be into the black for our bidding. This is great news for us!
As a reminder, bidding is closed in 3 1/2 days from now.
Again, thank you all and good luck :)
We have been given very generous donations by a handful of players. To be honest, we were shocked at the level of donation coming from the player base! Personally, I found myself very overwhelmed and emotional at the turn out. Thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far.
We will only be needing approximately another $500 more to be into the black for our bidding. This is great news for us!
As a reminder, bidding is closed in 3 1/2 days from now.
Again, thank you all and good luck :)
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Well, this is it! We are extremely close to our goal. We need about $200 more to be able to safely bid.
Player and staff contributions have been overwhelming. Thank you all so much and we'll let you know tonight what the outcome is!
GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!
Player and staff contributions have been overwhelming. Thank you all so much and we'll let you know tonight what the outcome is!
GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
-
- Sojourner
- Posts: 3923
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Waterdeep
CONGRATS TORILMUD!
We are the proud owners of icon spot #4 for the cost of $1961.
Thank you all so much for the contributions. We had 15 different contributors at varying levels, averaging out to $133.33 per donation.
We owe you all a debt of gratitude, and give yourselves hugetanic pats on the back.
We are the proud owners of icon spot #4 for the cost of $1961.
Thank you all so much for the contributions. We had 15 different contributors at varying levels, averaging out to $133.33 per donation.
We owe you all a debt of gratitude, and give yourselves hugetanic pats on the back.
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
no...not loaded...more like the money we saved from not paying to play. So you can call it a reimbursement if you are considerate enough to value something such as this. But for ones who can't afford it...atleast petition a thank you or something to the admins that are running/maintaining this server for our pleasure while living their day to day life/activities/jobs =)
Last edited by Rented on Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hello all again.
If you donated, please email me your RL name and your player name. At the moment, all I have are your RL names ...most of which I matched player names to, but the remaining names, I can't for the life of me place. :)
You know who you are! Please be prompt so our plaque can go in as soon as possible.
Thank you all again and happy mudding!
If you donated, please email me your RL name and your player name. At the moment, all I have are your RL names ...most of which I matched player names to, but the remaining names, I can't for the life of me place. :)
You know who you are! Please be prompt so our plaque can go in as soon as possible.
Thank you all again and happy mudding!
Shar - Forger Administrator, TorilMUD
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
Brandobaris : (51) [ would a forgotten realms zombie be interested in brains? ]
Shevarash tells you 'Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down..... groan'
FS tia circlet 1K US dollars
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
Was thinking that maybe a way for the mud to get more revenue for this sort of thing is to join an affiliate program with amazon.com or some other large vendors. Then just ask the players to click through the torilmud affiliate link when shopping there. The mud would get a few percentage points on any purchases made, and it wouldn't cost the users anything. I spent around $300 last year on Amazon. At 4% back, which is the base reimbursement rate, that would be $12 for the mud, and it wouldn't cost me a thing.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth wrote:Was thinking that maybe a way for the mud to get more revenue for this sort of thing is to join an affiliate program with amazon.com or some other large vendors. Then just ask the players to click through the torilmud affiliate link when shopping there. The mud would get a few percentage points on any purchases made, and it wouldn't cost the users anything. I spent around $300 last year on Amazon. At 4% back, which is the base reimbursement rate, that would be $12 for the mud, and it wouldn't cost me a thing.
Ordered some stuff from Amazon today.. about $60. So thats about $2.50 that could have gone to torilmud if they spent 5 minutes to make an affiliate account.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
I just spent 60 bucks there yesterday...
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~
You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'
Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'
Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
-
- Sojourner
- Posts: 1499
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
- Location: Virginia Beach
- Contact:
What, you think Amazon.com is going to start insisting that its logo be placed at the jot tree or something? Its just a way for toril to obtain much needed revenue at no additional cost to us. An "Affiliation" its not...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth wrote:What, you think Amazon.com is going to start insisting that its logo be placed at the jot tree or something? Its just a way for toril to obtain much needed revenue at no additional cost to us. An "Affiliation" its not...
I missed the part about where we needed revenue? It seems to me when Toril needs revenue, a handful of our players came through mightily and we got what we needed--ie. our icon on CMUD/ZMUD.
Frankly, you've just turned this into another way to express your jaded dissatisfaction with the Toril immortals. One would think that if someone really cared about the mud's well-being they would be a little less caustic and a lot more constructive in their expressions of criticism.
Actually, Birile, this is like the one place where I was trying to be constructive. Since I haven't played for a long time I don't really come up with too many good ideas, so the only thing I really talk about, directly or indirectly, is the pbase getting halved every couple of years. In this instance, I think my idea is actually half decent, as it would provide ongoing revenue for the mud to continue to advertise, and best of all, would not cost the players anything. To the extent that I am being caustic, its deserved because Shev won't take 5 minutes to set this up so that people buying crap on amazon can help support the mud.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth wrote:I missed the part about where we needed revenue. When we need revenue...
You're right, I meant "additional" revenue, as in more revenue at this point. I'm not sure what else we need revenue for at the present time, IIRC in the past, anytime something has come up, the playerbase has come through in a pinch.
As for the affiliate program, Shev has already said he planned on implementing it. I still have reservations as to whether this is the sort of road we want to start down. Unfortunately, that sort of decision is not made by the likes of me.
Fact of the matter is that the players on this mud are probably spending tens of thousands of dollars a year on Amazon. If shev spent all of 5 minutes to set it up, the mud could be getting 6% of those expenditures as a kickback from Amazon without it costing the players anything else in addition. That could be a substantial amount of money (potentially thousands of dollars a year), with no obligation on the part of the mud to associate itself with Amazon or change anything that its doing for that matter. The people who have contributed money in the past will not need to contribute as much in the future - for instance, when it comes time to again bid on a zmud icon. Seems to me to be a no-brainer.
If I was one of those people who "came through mightily" in the past, I would be insulted by the fact that the forgers do not bother to take advantage of this revenue source, and instead, just assume I will be ready to write another big check next year.
If I was one of those people who "came through mightily" in the past, I would be insulted by the fact that the forgers do not bother to take advantage of this revenue source, and instead, just assume I will be ready to write another big check next year.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
Ok, here we go. I'll do it FOR Shev. The link below goes to an affilliate account that I set up. I will forward all monies that I receive from Amazon that come in through this account to Shev. Hopefully at some point Shev will spend the same 5 minutes that I did setting up this account so that the money can go to him directly.
Basically, for it to work, when your buying something on Amazon, click on the below link. It will take you to Amazon, and a cookie will be put on your computer that lasts 24 hours. The account will get credit for any purchases you make on amazon.com during those 24 hours. Until Shev sets up his own account, I will periodically update this thread with the amounts received so that we can see how its doing. Once shev sets up his own account, I will kill the link below.
If he is too lazy to make his own affiliate account, Perhaps shev can spend all of 1 minute making a new announcement thread with the below link so that everyone will know how to benefit the mud when they make purchases on amazon.com
Note that you do not have to buy the product that its linked to. Just use that link to go to amazon, and make your purchase within 24 hours, and the mud will get credit for your purchases.
---EDITED TO REMOVE LINK---
Basically, for it to work, when your buying something on Amazon, click on the below link. It will take you to Amazon, and a cookie will be put on your computer that lasts 24 hours. The account will get credit for any purchases you make on amazon.com during those 24 hours. Until Shev sets up his own account, I will periodically update this thread with the amounts received so that we can see how its doing. Once shev sets up his own account, I will kill the link below.
If he is too lazy to make his own affiliate account, Perhaps shev can spend all of 1 minute making a new announcement thread with the below link so that everyone will know how to benefit the mud when they make purchases on amazon.com
Note that you do not have to buy the product that its linked to. Just use that link to go to amazon, and make your purchase within 24 hours, and the mud will get credit for your purchases.
---EDITED TO REMOVE LINK---
Last edited by Corth on Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
The idea that Toril doesn't "need" revenue is kind of alien to me. At the very least, an Amazon affiliation would help pay for the server maintenance and bandwidth necessary for the MUD. And it costs nothing to set up the Amazon affiliation... I can't see how there'd be any discussion or debate on this topic.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
No purchases yet through the amazon affiliate link I set up. I'm going to edit out the link.. the lack of revenue coming in makes it not worth spending the time to check it and ultimately attempt to coordinate with shev how to send the money over to him. I still think the idea would work quite well if the gods set up a link themselves and then promoted it with an announcement and maybe a message upon signing into the mud.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
Where you somehow expecting us all to run out and buy things just because you put up a link?
Give it time. I don't need anything right now, but might have used the link next time I got around to buying something.
Give it time. I don't need anything right now, but might have used the link next time I got around to buying something.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis,
I don't think its going to be bringing in very much money unless they take some steps to let the mudders know about it. A new thread in the announcement forum, a message when you login to the mud.. that sort of thing. It was up for a couple of weeks and nobody bought even a single item through that link. Either people do not know about it, or they do but don't want to be involved with it unless its official endorsed by the mud (understandable), or I have been wrong all along and there isn't very much demand for this sort of thing.
Corth
I don't think its going to be bringing in very much money unless they take some steps to let the mudders know about it. A new thread in the announcement forum, a message when you login to the mud.. that sort of thing. It was up for a couple of weeks and nobody bought even a single item through that link. Either people do not know about it, or they do but don't want to be involved with it unless its official endorsed by the mud (understandable), or I have been wrong all along and there isn't very much demand for this sort of thing.
Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth
Goddamned slippery mage.
Goddamned slippery mage.
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