Worst Case scenario

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Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:14 am

I read a lot of various forums, and one particular trend that I've noticed is that the average, everyday American seems to be scared shitless. Jobs are going away and more and more people are realizing that fewer jobs are stepping up to take their place. How many Americans can say they don't know anyone that is unemployed or lost their home recently?

I realize that this doesn't seem applicable to the average Torilite from what I've taken about all of your financial situations, the question remains. How bad do you think it is going to get?

One interesting comment that I picked up online in an unemployment thread was when people started talking about turning to crime and rioting. Instead of any form of deterrent or alternative solution being discussed, the thread evolved into a public debate about the most efficient target selection process for rioting, and what sort of crimes would be the least destructive to local communities while still keeping people able to support their families.

I think as a whole, most of us, myself included, just take the American lifestyle for granted, and I believe the 'system' that runs our country does, also. It is like a lecherous enabler who has thrown our future away to sustain a lucrative lifestyle for itself. It is bloated, destructive, and ultimately flawed.

Our history is built on revolution and change, but our present seems mired in stagnation and complacency. What do you think it means for our future, and, to the more educated of you, do you believe that we are currently underestimating the problems in the near future, or are we blowing them out of proportion?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:00 pm

I've been saying for years that I expect a second great depression type scenario here. Only time will tell.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:14 pm

Yes, but the depression happened a long time ago, in the 80 years since the 'original' Depression, our culture and society have changed somewhat drastically. What exactly does a depression do to our country today?

I mean, as the scale of our population and economic influence has grown, so also would the repercussions of a Depression today scale exponentially larger. 80 years of accumulated growth means 80 years worth of even more damaging losses.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:54 pm

Worst case scenario? Unemployment around 20-25%. GDP contracting around 10% per annum. Hunger, disease, homelessness, crime. Increasing likelihood of war.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby avak » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:30 pm

There's a real tendency towards glorification of these 'doom and gloom' scenarios on two levels that bother me. One, Corth is probably right in expecting some pretty bad shit barring a fundamental shift in our direction as a country (and a globe for that matter). Peak oil, climate change, overpopulation and water all point directly to strife. OTOH, what is different now than ever before in the history of mankind is technology and communication. Me thirty years ago (my father, let's say) doesn't know 75% of what I know in terms of exposure to a wide range of important topics. That is not a judgment, just an observation. Take the 80/20 rule....if I want to get up to speed on any issue in the entire universe, I just fire up the laptop and away I go. I think that one small detail may be our saving grace. I could be way wrong there. What I do know is that some people like to talk about an impending societal implosion. Anarchy and chaos. Well, I think we're way more likely just to see really crappy times...where most people still have a place to live and most people still eat, but not many have a lot of money. Hell, most of the world is like that currently.

Secondly, I have heard a lot of people talk about what they'll do in these apocalyptic scenarios. Where we'll riot? What resources we'll target? God, reminds me of that old tabletop game Twilight 2000. Even in mild emergencies people find themselves largely helpless. I had a friend say, yeah I'll just grow some food...I know how to garden. I said...yeah? Where are you going to do this? Your backyard? And where are you going to get the seeds? The non-existent hardware store? And when your city water is turned off are you going to haul in water from the lake ten miles outside of town?

I think the last 30 mins of that eighties nuke-drama, Threads, shows what desperation looks like....that or the Grapes of Wrath.

So, to answer the last question directly, I think we are generally over-reacting and worrying about the wrong things.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:41 pm

Couldn't the expansion of communication networks also mean that panic and rioting could lead to a more rapid and aggressive spread of misinformation and panic?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:52 pm

Most of what you read is being blown out of proportion. Yes, some things are bad, but the government is in some cases doing the right things. We have help for the banks and lending. We have lower rates designed to help lower borrowing costs. As long we do not let zombie industries exists, such as the auto companies, we should come out of this fine. As I said, there will be troubles, but they also create possiblities. One example, I just hired a sales assistant for my office that worked at another major financial firm, but she was laid off. I was able to hire someone very qualified that normally I would not able to find and she got a new job. For most folks, losing their job just means finding a new one.

If we do the wrong things like raise taxes, then we will get our version of Hoovervilles, "Obamavilles"?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:12 am

the expansion of the past 50 years was financed against the future.

If consumers decide now is the time to hunker down and pay back what they borrowed, then consumption, 70% of our GDP, will go down dramatically and not recover in the short term. If we lose 10-20-30% of the GDP, thats hundreds of thousands to a couple million jobs. Where will new jobs come from if no one is buying anything?

The 1 trillion dollar stimulus Obama is talking about will need to be paid for eventually, but I really think we got a 50/50 chance that American consumerism will retreat for several years regardless... Individual americans have a ton of debt to pay off in teh form of their car and their house and even worse their tax burden. People are going to squeezed and they are going to remember crisis and alter their habits. Look at the barriers to a return to consumerism even if things go rosy.... oil supply worries, the whole green movement and moving the "real cost" of pollution into the products we use, increased taxes for everything and especially for medicare/medicaid/ssi, the constant rising cost of insurance... How can spending recover... spending that is not borrowed?

I tend towards doomsday, but reality will probably fall short. On the other hand, all it takes is one little hurricane in New Orleans and you have rape gangs wandering the streets and a total break down in "civilization".

btw, you don't really need a years supply of food. If civilization devolves suddenly, you only need about 3 months, a source of water, a defensible location and a few guns to outlive all the people who can't or didn't help themselves.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:19 pm

Worst case scenario? World War III, fighting over dwindling resources, nuclear winter, and a long slow recovery while roaches take over the planet as the dominant lifeform.

Probable scenario? A bunch of business go bankrupt, we have a few years of depression, the suicide rate goes up for a bit, the economy stabilizes, and people take a few years, maybe even a full generation, to go back to full-blown self-entitlement and an economy based on waste and engineered obsoletion. I hate to see people suffer, but if you look at the big picture, even the Great Depression was just a blink in human history.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby avak » Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm

I pretty much agree with Ashiwi, but I think it is worth at least mentioning that the so-called Dark Ages of Europe lasted 600 years and the other well known 'dark ages' of Cambodia lasted 400.

At lot of armchair historians compare the current climate in the US to that of Rome and the collapse of Rome was the beginning of the Dark Ages.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:37 am

avak wrote:I pretty much agree with Ashiwi, but I think it is worth at least mentioning that the so-called Dark Ages of Europe lasted 600 years and the other well known 'dark ages' of Cambodia lasted 400.

At lot of armchair historians compare the current climate in the US to that of Rome and the collapse of Rome was the beginning of the Dark Ages.


The world operated much differently during the Roman empire. There is no possible way to equate todays US with any similar "empires" of the past due to the globalization of economies -- among other things. This crisis needs to be seen in a vaccuum and no other way. What happens will happen independent of history -- I guarantee that.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:02 am

Maybe no one actually reads earnings reports, but a number of them recently have actually been upbeat. Sorry, the end of the world is going to have to wait.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Gormal » Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:46 pm

Prices are still dropping, not rising. I think that this generation is so desperate for their defining struggle, that they almost want a depression, a real war, or some other traumatic global event so they feel like they fit in. What's my prediction? Times will be tough for a little while for a great many Americans and people will come to realize that they might have to give up their pointless jobs and get their hands dirty to stay employed. I see everything stabilizing in a few years at the latest though.

People need to stop whining about how horrible things are and go out and fucking do something about it. The hard working spirit of America that characterized pre-1950 generations has been absent for far too long, and people need to simply realize that everyone coasting through life isn't realistic.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:29 am

You and I apparently live in different worlds if you don't see and know that hard working people still exist. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they aren't there. It means that the vast majority of the jobs that kept those people employed are gone. The plants have been closing for years, the factories are becoming memories. I promise you that if you opened a plant or factory in any part of the country you'd have employees that would break their neck to keep that job. Or how about farm labor you say? Tell me, do you know of any family owned farms that have not been taken over and make a profit large enough to consider growth or hiring new employees?

You accuse people of being lazy? According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there were 10.3 million people unemployed in the month of November, with that number nearing 11 million by January. At the beginning of November there were 3.1 million job openings, with that number falling steadily and continually. In case you don't notice the connection, Job openings are being filled, and Unemployment numbers are rising.

Tell me, how does sheer willpower and motivation overcome the fact that there simply are not enough jobs for the people who want to work?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:43 am

Maybe if we didn't discourage manufacturing with over the top environmental laws and an upcoming administration that wants to give everything to the unions, we'd have more manufacturing jobs? The Japanese transplants are doing just fine here in the States.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:46 am

From what I've read of Obama's stimulus plan there isn't much mention of those type of incentives, although they certainly don't disclude them, either.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Gormal » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:47 am

kwirl wrote:Whiny bullshit


There are jobs. You may have to step outside what you want to do and get your hands dirty... oh no. I've already posted about how it is possible to completely sell off your worldly possessions, move, and get a new job. I've had a few other job offers since I started my new one, so I don't buy this woe is me bullshit you're hocking.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Gormal » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:48 am

kwirl wrote:disclude


Also: didn't you have a bunch of facial piercings?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:57 am

When I become unemployed the first thing I do is get rid of any video game subscriptions I have, remove my piercings, cut my hair, and shave.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:37 am

I'm confused. What kind of job did you have that allowed facial piercings, long hair and you didn't have to shave?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Gormal » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:55 am

Maybe its time to stop rebelling against the same society that you're struggling to find a job in and stop trying to look like a punk rock reject as soon as you sign your W-4's. You've also made statements that you work from home and that you work with computers... maybe its time to realize that you don't in fact... work... at all. Get out, apply for anything that pays: food service, construction, cleaning city shitters, whatever you have to do. Really, if you're not doing everything possible to find a job, then you have no right whatsoever to complain about the poor job market.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:49 am

After getting a job I asked human resources if they frowned upon or had a policy disallowing colored hair or piercings in the workplace. If so, or if management seemed to look down upon it, then I would not, but Comcast had a policy at the time that I was allowed to have piercings, tattoos, colored hair, etc. Some of the upper management was former military and had all sorts of visible piercings and tattoos, so it was inaudibly encouraged
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:56 am

I work from home because its the only job available. I put my resume out between 10-20 times a week. There are no jobs in food service or construction, I'm not able to work city jobs, and whatever. The fact is, you don't really care because its easy for you to say 'just go out and do it' because obviously, you don't need to. That isn't an insult, so don't focus on that statement to criticize me.

Right now I'm doing web design and SEO, and no, the pay isn't amazing. I make 10-15 an hour, but it keeps a roof over my head. When tax season starts, I'll use the training I received years back doing taxes to make more money - between 5-10 thousand usually, which I pay off outstanding debts and this year, hopefully, will start working on saving to keep myself out of such a bad financial situation in the future.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:28 pm

There is a vast difference between what is allowed at work and what you should do at work. That is one important thing to know for your career.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:16 pm

Gormal wrote:Maybe its time to stop rebelling against the same society that you're struggling to find a job in and stop trying to look like a punk rock reject as soon as you sign your W-4's. You've also made statements that you work from home and that you work with computers... maybe its time to realize that you don't in fact... work... at all. Get out, apply for anything that pays: food service, construction, cleaning city shitters, whatever you have to do. Really, if you're not doing everything possible to find a job, then you have no right whatsoever to complain about the poor job market.



Riiiiigggghhhhtttt. Nothing done with computers can be considered work. :roll:

Lathander: I know it's pointless to reply to you, but you realize this isn't the 50's right? How a person dresses has NO influence on their job skills, unless they are public facing and then it's just a matter of looking respectable to the customer.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:55 pm

Ok, appearance has no impact on your job skills. But if you think it has no impact on your ability to obtain and keep your job, regardless of what HR says, you are so sadly mistaken its not even funny.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:14 pm

Corth wrote:Ok, appearance has no impact on your job skills. But if you think it has no impact on your ability to obtain and keep your job, regardless of what HR says, you are so sadly mistaken its not even funny.



Frankly I think you're overestimating the importance managers put on appearances these days. Those who still DO place such an emphasis on appearances are likely so small minded that I wouldn't want to work for them anyway.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:48 am

Will let you have the last word on that. Suffice to say that I disagree mightily.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:05 am

Corth wrote:Will let you have the last word on that. Suffice to say that I disagree mightily.


You disagree that <b>I</b> wouldn't want to work with someone who put so much importance on appearance?

Interesting.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:23 am

No, Sarvis. I disagree that I overestimate the importance managers put on appearances these days. I would not be so arrogant as to purport to understand what goes on in your mind. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:14 am

Corth, I agree with you for the most part. Most, but not ALL workplaces are like that. As I said, if the environment and management appear to be supportive of that type of appearance, then I do. That being said, this was work in a call center, doing computer stuff. Colored hair, ink, piercings was visible from management down, it wasn't something that was out of place. On the other hand, a job I had later was doing sales and marketing for statuary. The kind of customers who can afford 20 thousand dollar sculptures for their front yard aren't the kind of people who I would take that chance with.

I removed my visible piercings and kept my hair color experiments to being no more daring than simple bleaching. I'm not about to run the risk of insulting customers or clients by forcing my personal aesthetics on them when my ability to convince them of my worthiness to handle their business is at stake. That is just stupid.

That being said, I think my position is that its acceptability has boundaries defined by the workplace and policy, and I have not overstepped those boundaries, making Gormal's attempt to use it as a factor in my inability to find work irrelevant.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:07 pm

I was just imagine a hiring guide written by Corth:

1) Make sure you hire a friend, rather than looking for qualified and skilled candidates
2) Make sure he's well dressed, as that's the best indicator of skill and work ethic


With attitudes like that I'm not horribly surprised our financial and automotive industries need bailouts...
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:17 pm

Shrug,

It might be superficial but if I were interviewing someone for a job and that person didn't even bother to dress up nicely or groom him/herself, I would probably conclude that this person doesn't really want the job. Otherwise he/she would have jumped through this particular hoop and tried to make a good impression.

Heres a 'for instance'. I can't think of many jobs that actually utilize the information you learn in college. And yet, most jobs that pay decently require some sort of degree. Why do employers care what you learned in your various liberal arts electives? Well, you would be quite right that most employers do not care at all. But what *is* important is that you played the game. You were smart enough and disciplined enough to jump through all the college hoops and get that piece of paper saying you completed it. Thats whats important. Because it reflects on your ability to jump through all the hoops I plan to put in front of you as your employer.

You can be the smartest most qualified person in the world, but as a potential employer, I have no way of knowing that. Truthfully, its difficult to find someone who will do a good job. You might have a great interview with a highly qualified person, and they still suck. But given the choice between a candidate who can jump through hoops and looks good and has a good attitude, and another candidate who doesn't even bother, its a no brainer.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 4:25 pm

Corth wrote:Shrug,

It might be superficial but if I were interviewing someone for a job and that person didn't even bother to dress up nicely or groom him/herself, I would probably conclude that this person doesn't really want the job. Otherwise he/she would have jumped through this particular hoop and tried to make a good impression.


I'm not necessarily talking about the interview, but again if someone wears a suit but has purple hair should they be disqualified?

Heres a 'for instance'. I can't think of many jobs that actually utilize the information you learn in college. And yet, most jobs that pay decently require some sort of degree. Why do employers care what you learned in your various liberal arts electives? Well, you would be quite right that most employers do not care at all. But what *is* important is that you played the game. You were smart enough and disciplined enough to jump through all the college hoops and get that piece of paper saying you completed it. Thats whats important. Because it reflects on your ability to jump through all the hoops I plan to put in front of you as your employer.


Which really proves nothing, and leads to things like people paying to have papers written for them so they can go party every night. A college degree has as much chance of proving the candidate can handle a beer bong as it does of proving he's disciplined and driven.

Then you have schools like ITT who eschew the liberal arts crap and focus on the things people WILL use in their careers. I have friends who graduated from ITT and went straight to Intel and HSBC, spent less money to get their "degree" and are now better off than me. (Not that I'm jealous or anything.)

In other words, maybe employers are starting to care more about the skills people actually need to do their jobs, and less about the appearance of a full blown degree.

You can be the smartest most qualified person in the world, but as a potential employer, I have no way of knowing that. Truthfully, its difficult to find someone who will do a good job.


Must be especially hard when you can't look past the suit.

You might have a great interview with a highly qualified person, and they still suck. But given the choice between a candidate who can jump through hoops and looks good and has a good attitude, and another candidate who doesn't even bother, its a no brainer.


Yeah, no brainer. No wonder we need bailouts.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:22 pm

Heheh, ok I'm just trying to be helpful. Have fun with your purple suited job interviews. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:26 pm

Corth wrote:Heheh, ok I'm just trying to be helpful. Have fun with your purple suited job interviews. :)


I said purple hair, which really isn't an issue for me. Of course, I shave my head so I'm sure there's a few brilliant executives out there who think I'm a freak not worth hiring based just on that.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Gormal » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:02 pm

I've almost universally found that when people who have a lot of piercings and wild hair "clean up" its by their standards, and not what their employers would consider looking really sharp. That's irrelevant though, since there isn't a single job to be had in your state and there's a shackle on your ankle holding you at home. How about this one: are you still smoking pot and/or drinking at all?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:21 pm

lol sarvis. This is what normal people understand about people like you. You have problems.

You may be a intelligent person, hard working and everything else, but its obvious by your visible signs of rebellion that you got problems. In this job market particularly (but even most of the time), you have to understand this. Employers are not looking for a reason to hire you... they are looking for a reason not to hire you... and despite it probably being illegal, they will discriminate against you based on appearance and it will be up to you to prove otherwise.

You and Kwirl need to understand what you are telling people around you. I'm not like you. I'm unique. I reject the way you do things. I don't have to follow societies rules. Why would you hire someone like that for most jobs?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:29 pm

No, I only drink socially and I haven't done any drugs in almost 2 years now. I don't have a license because I can't afford to pay the fines and tickets from a few years ago, but I walk or use the bus to get to interviews and look for applications.

I realize its hard to fathom that people exist that want to work but for whatever reason, just can't. I'm not going to try and make you believe other than what you want. Either you do, or you don't.

And Kiryan, I don't color my hair or get my piercings to 'rebel' - I color my hair because its just dead skin, and I think it looks funny. I pierce my nose, lips, tongue, etc because I enjoy going out with my friends and getting pierced. I don't really have anything to 'rebel' against, at least nothing tangible. If I did have the urge to 'rebel' it wouldn't be anything as stupid or pointless as getting a piercing or coloring my hair.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:40 pm

kiryan wrote:lol sarvis. This is what normal people understand about people like you. You have problems.


*pat Kiryan* Always trust a conservative to bring insults into a debate!


You may be a intelligent person, hard working and everything else, but its obvious by your visible signs of rebellion that you got problems.


Mostly it's an attempt to hide going bald, but hey... if assuming I'm some giant rebel helps confirm your twisted worldview then go for it.

In this job market particularly (but even most of the time), you have to understand this. Employers are not looking for a reason to hire you... they are looking for a reason not to hire you... and despite it probably being illegal, they will discriminate against you based on appearance and it will be up to you to prove otherwise.


Again, you wonder why our economy is failing, this _could_ be it. Form over function is fine for art, not so good for getting things done. Hire enough incompetent retards who dress well and you don't deserve a bailout when your company goes under.

You and Kwirl need to understand what you are telling people around you. I'm not like you. I'm unique. I reject the way you do things. I don't have to follow societies rules. Why would you hire someone like that for most jobs?


Because you don't want a bunch of sheep and yesmen who can't actually do anything, maybe?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby oteb » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:48 pm

Kwirl your ability to dismiss any argument and reason is quite amusing.
Its not that you consider yourself rebellious, or unique, or different, or not abiding to rules. Its how people conceive of you. Of course not judging book by its cover is a good idea yet people do it all the time. If they are given a choice of someone more like them or someone openly different and nonconformistic they will pick the first. There are very few jobs out there where being openly different is indeed encouraged. Some of the creative jobs fall into that category. But those are usually for skilled professionals where some open mindedness and outsider point of view can be benefical and can be utilized. Most other jobs its either forbidden openly or frowned upon secretly.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:04 pm

In an economical slump when the number of unemployed is rising and the number of available jobs is falling, employers find themselves in a position where they have a large pool of qualified (often over-qualified) applicants to choose from.

They also find themselves in a position where their own businesses may be impacted by the economy, and be financially encouraged to place a greater emphasis on competition for resources.

In any business whose customer base has potential face-to-face contact with the business representative, which potential employee is going to be a better investment for the employer? Will it be the brilliant young man with the facial piercings and the ragged jeans, or will it be the brilliant young man with the conservative haircut and tastefully coordinated professional business attire?

Another question...

In an economical slump when the number of unemployed is rising and the number of available jobs is falling, and the only employer in your area who is hiring for a position with decent wages and benefits requires business professional dress, is it better to hold a personal stance that they are not an employer you prefer to work for because of the dress requirement, thus remaining jobless, or is it better to tailor your image to the requirements of the employer, thus improving your chances of attaining the position and not remaining jobless?

Another question...

In an economical slump when the number of unemployed is rising and the number of available jobs is falling, employers often have need to let employees go. If given the choice between two equally brilliant young men who are also equally skilled, would it be a better investment for them to keep the young man who maintains his appearance per the company standard, coming in to work cleancut and in business professional attire, or is it a better investment for them to keep the young man who disregards company standard on a daily basis by coming to work in cut-off jeans and humorously obscene tshirts?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:11 pm

Ashiwi wrote:In any business whose customer base has potential face-to-face contact with the business representative, which potential employee is going to be a better investment for the employer? Will it be the brilliant young man with the facial piercings and the ragged jeans, or will it be the brilliant young man with the conservative haircut and tastefully coordinated professional business attire?


I excepted customer facing employees at the very beginning of the discussion. That said, I don't think you ever put brilliant people in customer facing positions. Salesmen aren't known for being smart, after all.

Another question...

In an economical slump when the number of unemployed is rising and the number of available jobs is falling, and the only employer in your area who is hiring for a position with decent wages and benefits requires business professional dress, is it better to hold a personal stance that they are not an employer you prefer to work for because of the dress requirement, thus remaining jobless, or is it better to tailor your image to the requirements of the employer, thus improving your chances of attaining the position and not remaining jobless?


Hey, I'd wear the suit. I just wouldn't stop sending out resumes.

If a company cares more about appearances of back office personnel than actual work getting done, then I don't really want to be there.

Another question...

In an economical slump when the number of unemployed is rising and the number of available jobs is falling, employers often have need to let employees go.


Ok really, you're just wasting space.

Or is this more form over function, time wasting over directness? Pointless verbosity for the win!


If given the choice between two equally brilliant young men who are also equally skilled, would it be a better investment for them to keep the young man who maintains his appearance per the company standard, coming in to work cleancut and in business professional attire, or is it a better investment for them to keep the young man who disregards company standard on a daily basis by coming to work in cut-off jeans and humorously obscene tshirts?



Frankly if I found two candidates who were equally brilliant, I'd try to hire both. If I liked both equally but could only hire one, I'd flip a coin.

Then again, I'm not the kind of guy who ruins multi-million dollar investment companies or thinks GW Bush was a good idea. *shrug*
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:50 pm

I don't see why you're making this a conservative vs. liberal discussion. It's simply called playing the game. Whether you like it or not, all people, including yourself, make judgements about people within the first few seconds of meeting them. Those judgements, whether you like it or not, color your perceptions from then out until you've spent enough time with them to dispel those previous judgements if you need to -- an interview is not that much time; therefore, you'll be working with those judgements. Unless you're a complete fucking idiot, you will dress nice for an interview. If you can't do that one simple thing, you don't deserve the job. Why? Just like the others are saying, because people who dress nice are people who care enough to get the job; moreover, people who dress nice are more presentable to clients, higher-ups, etc. If I'm a mid-level manager, I'm not going to higher some punk with holes in his face (more than likely) because, if my boss comes down and sees that, I look bad. Not because I think a holey faced person is bad, but he probably does. I don't want to look bad infront of my boss, so that guy with holes in his face probably wont be hired... even if he is more brilliant than the other guys. At the end of the day, somebody of average intelligence can perform up to the standard needed to fulfill his job duties -- I don't need stephen hawking answering my damn phone. I need somebody with a clear voice and a sense of ettiquette.

When I walk into a bank, I don't want a gangsta or a junkie handling my money. I don't want some lady who looks like a 1980's prostitute handling my children's education. I don't want someone with bad hygine serving me my food at a restaurant. I'm sure you wouldn't want any of these things either outside of an argument. It's the way the world works. Like it or not, you have to live in it. The fact will always remain: play the game, or get fucked. You can't fuck with natural law. I'd love to not have to shit for the rest of my life (without having a bang coming out of my side), but I have to. I'd love to never have to kill anything to survive, but I have to. Deal with it or sit in your house with your holey face and pink hair -- or get a job at hot topic and make minimum wage. At some point, you will either have to grow up, or learn to live poor and be happy -- or learn to write catchy music.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:02 pm

You know what's really, truly amazing here?

Every single one of you has brought up the interview and the customer service situations.

This is amazing because it means you mostly ignored what I said:

Me wrote:How a person dresses has NO influence on their job skills, unless they are public facing and then it's just a matter of looking respectable to the customer.


Me wrote:I'm not necessarily talking about the interview,



I guess I shouldn't be surprised you only skim what I write when you're all advocating judging people based solely on their appearance. It's exactly this kind of superficiality that's getting our country in such trouble. Who cares how solid the foundation of a company is, as long as it's stock went up a few points! Who cares how talented your engineers are, as long as they wear shiny black shoes! Who cares what someone wrote, he's a liberal... burn him!

The worst part is that you're all looking at me as the bad guy here. I'm merely pointing out that most of us have a bit more depth than our clothes. I'm pointing out that people are human, and that's anathema to you. You'd rather play the game than live.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:17 pm

We get your point. The way you dress, or smell, or otherwise look has no bearing on your skills (unless your a salesman apparently). You, on the other hand, seem to be missing the point that unless you are presentable in the first place, at the job interview, you won't ever get the job, no matter how brilliant you are.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:23 pm

Corth wrote:We get your point. The way you dress, or smell, or otherwise look has no bearing on your skills (unless your a salesman apparently). You, on the other hand, seem to be missing the point that unless you are presentable in the first place, at the job interview, you won't ever get the job, no matter how brilliant you are.


Yeah... way to pay attention.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:31 pm

If your calling me out for ignoring the 'people are human' bit, I do apologize. That type of stuff goes way over my head.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:35 pm

Corth wrote:If your calling me out for ignoring the 'people are human' bit, I do apologize. That type of stuff goes way over my head.


Actually, it was the "I'm not talking about interviews" bit.

Look, dressing up for the interview is understood by everyone (or at least everyone who isn't retarded) as a must. I'm talking about being on the floor with piercings like Kifle was in his original story. Gormal thought that was some heinous act of rebellion, and that touched this discussion off. I was saying looks shouldn't matter that much when you have talented, hard-working employees and then you all went off talking about interviews.

Which, really, it's still retarded to hold something like tattoos or other permanent markings against a person if they are otherwise dressed well for the interview.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:53 pm

I dunno. It might be a stereotype, and I am sure there are many exceptions.. but I would assume, for instance, that people with multiple tattoos and piercings are a lot more likely to be recreational drug users than others. Maybe there are studies that can back me up or contradict me, but I bet I'm right about that. And if I assume that piercings and tattoos mean a greater likelihood of drug use, I can also assume more 'sick days', and less productivity, since it is well known that recreational drug users miss more work and are less productive when they are indeed at work. So, yeah, I think its reasonable for an employer to take that into account at the interview stage.

On the other hand, I agree with you about appearance after the employment relationship has started. If I have an employee who has tattoos and piercings, and the appearance doesn't get in the way of him doing his job, or otherwise effect workplace morale, and in fact he does excellent work, I will be very grateful to have that employee. The problem though for that perspective employee is getting through my door in the first place.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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