What it takes to be a real warrior in this game.....
What it takes to be a real warrior in this game.....
< 613h/613H 148v/148V >
<> who hildippie
Listing of Specific Character
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[46 Warrior ] Hildippie -Guppy- Shadows of Imphras (Gnome)
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< 613h/613H 148v/148V >
<> l hildippie
You see nothing special about him.
Hildippie appears to be Gnome and is in excellent condition.
<worn on head> golden crown of the frost giant kings
<worn on eyes> a silver scaled eyepatch
<worn in ear> a tiny golden earring
<worn in ear> a tiny golden earring
<worn on face> a soft leather mask encrusted with garnets
<worn around neck> an adamantium neckguard
<worn around neck> an adamantium neckguard
<worn on body> ringmail emblazoned with a mace and skull emblem
<worn about body> a cloak of deva's feathers
<worn as quiver> a black-leather ammo belt (illuminating)
<worn about waist> a belt of flame enshrouded amethysts
<worn on arms> a pair of blued steel vambraces
<held as shield> a glowing shield of polished rose quartz (illuminating)
<worn around wrist> a thick adamantium bracelet (illuminating)
<worn around wrist> a thick adamantium bracelet (illuminating)
<worn on hands> a pair of taut ogrehide gloves
<worn on finger> an amethyst ring
<worn on finger> an amethyst ring
<primary weapon> a silver githyanki longsword
<worn on legs> naga-hide leggings
<worn on feet> a pair of shiny golden boots
if you writing a new zone, just put a buncha nobits hp gear in it, cause clearly warriors dont need warrior gear.
bs
<> who hildippie
Listing of Specific Character
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[46 Warrior ] Hildippie -Guppy- Shadows of Imphras (Gnome)
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< 613h/613H 148v/148V >
<> l hildippie
You see nothing special about him.
Hildippie appears to be Gnome and is in excellent condition.
<worn on head> golden crown of the frost giant kings
<worn on eyes> a silver scaled eyepatch
<worn in ear> a tiny golden earring
<worn in ear> a tiny golden earring
<worn on face> a soft leather mask encrusted with garnets
<worn around neck> an adamantium neckguard
<worn around neck> an adamantium neckguard
<worn on body> ringmail emblazoned with a mace and skull emblem
<worn about body> a cloak of deva's feathers
<worn as quiver> a black-leather ammo belt (illuminating)
<worn about waist> a belt of flame enshrouded amethysts
<worn on arms> a pair of blued steel vambraces
<held as shield> a glowing shield of polished rose quartz (illuminating)
<worn around wrist> a thick adamantium bracelet (illuminating)
<worn around wrist> a thick adamantium bracelet (illuminating)
<worn on hands> a pair of taut ogrehide gloves
<worn on finger> an amethyst ring
<worn on finger> an amethyst ring
<primary weapon> a silver githyanki longsword
<worn on legs> naga-hide leggings
<worn on feet> a pair of shiny golden boots
if you writing a new zone, just put a buncha nobits hp gear in it, cause clearly warriors dont need warrior gear.
bs
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
Troll warriors turg, gyrx, caz, also wear tons of hp eq, i think gyrx wears hp eq up to around 1100 or 1200 no vit.
tell me this, why would a warrior wear dam eq when he does maybe half as much dam as a rogue and maybe 1/6th as much as an invoker? when you suppose the last time was that a warrior having an extra 10/10 saved the day, now how many times you suppose a warrior having an extra 250 hps saved the day? not to mention that he has to wear a shield over a more damaging weapon in order to use his important combat skills. warriors are meat shields, you want dam get a rogue, ranger, invoker, ect...
tell me this, why would a warrior wear dam eq when he does maybe half as much dam as a rogue and maybe 1/6th as much as an invoker? when you suppose the last time was that a warrior having an extra 10/10 saved the day, now how many times you suppose a warrior having an extra 250 hps saved the day? not to mention that he has to wear a shield over a more damaging weapon in order to use his important combat skills. warriors are meat shields, you want dam get a rogue, ranger, invoker, ect...
exactly my point caz. what's the point to an ac10 -1hit +2dam torque, or ac3 +2dam earring, when all the zoning warriors really want is +hp gear to keep them alive? and the ratio of nobits +hp gear vs. +hit/dam gear is far in favor of the hit/dam gear. there is only one +hp item in brass that i know of, like what, two or three items in jot...but shitloads of warrior stuff in both of those zones.
the gear in the game is still based in a far different combat/zoning system than what we have today. there is only one pure warrior class, as always, and two hitter classes, but there are now 5 mage classes when we had only two before. i see warriors with better hp gear than i do mages far too often at the same level. i view this as imbalanced.
gnomes/halflings tank better than trolls with hp gear on because of their insane agility, so i've been told and emailed logs of. can we get tanking xp? hehe
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 02-09-2002).]
the gear in the game is still based in a far different combat/zoning system than what we have today. there is only one pure warrior class, as always, and two hitter classes, but there are now 5 mage classes when we had only two before. i see warriors with better hp gear than i do mages far too often at the same level. i view this as imbalanced.
gnomes/halflings tank better than trolls with hp gear on because of their insane agility, so i've been told and emailed logs of. can we get tanking xp? hehe
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 02-09-2002).]
Look around. Everyone is wearing at least hp rings. Why? Because they want to live =9 It doesn't matter whether you're a wizard, a cleric, a warrior, or a rogue! Yayaril wears about 350 points of hp gear regularly. Why? Because a dead rogue does no damage at all. It's the facts plain and simple. Nobody wants to die and they're going to do everything they can to not die, even if it means being ever so slightly less effective in combat.
Yayaril
Yayaril
This is exactly how it was back when you started playing, Grintor, the diversity of hp eq was just dramatically smaller. I have always worn exclusively ac/hps on Jurdex. Why?
Cuz I am a warrior.
I charge head first into the fray.
I am the front line of defense.
DEFENSE..
Not offense.
That would be for rogues or rangers or vokers, etc..
Dornax
Jurdex
Cuz I am a warrior.
I charge head first into the fray.
I am the front line of defense.
DEFENSE..
Not offense.
That would be for rogues or rangers or vokers, etc..
Dornax
Jurdex
Couldn't say it better Jurdex. o_o
Others are thinking along the lines of knights on horseback, heavily armed samurai, abrams tanks - the more armor you have, the longer you live.
The game mechanics of Sojourn don't work that way, it's not like the real world at all. On sojourn you get hit alot, and thus have to survive alot of blows, which means hit points. To get back to the real world, the fights would have to slow way down OR you would have to be hit VERY rarely. Then your armor could absorb most of the damage, and you could get back to caring less about hit points. But what fun would that be? miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Ooo I got a hit! OR hit (5 seconds) miss (5 seconds) blah. This is one of the big differences in Sojourn - that our world moves by much faster than in the real world. Faster speed = more hits. More hits = more hit points or you die OR huge numbers of misses. You could go either way with it, but we chose the way of allowing alot of hits to happen. Thats fun, doing damage is fun. Mobs have lots of hit points as a result, and so do the tanks.
As a tank myself, I love doping up on HP gear and charging into battle. I love the spam, rescuing people, managing my hit points, dieing to save frinds, and all that. Thats what being a warrior is all about. I don't think its broken at all.
Miax
[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 02-09-2002).]
Others are thinking along the lines of knights on horseback, heavily armed samurai, abrams tanks - the more armor you have, the longer you live.
The game mechanics of Sojourn don't work that way, it's not like the real world at all. On sojourn you get hit alot, and thus have to survive alot of blows, which means hit points. To get back to the real world, the fights would have to slow way down OR you would have to be hit VERY rarely. Then your armor could absorb most of the damage, and you could get back to caring less about hit points. But what fun would that be? miss, miss, miss, miss, miss, Ooo I got a hit! OR hit (5 seconds) miss (5 seconds) blah. This is one of the big differences in Sojourn - that our world moves by much faster than in the real world. Faster speed = more hits. More hits = more hit points or you die OR huge numbers of misses. You could go either way with it, but we chose the way of allowing alot of hits to happen. Thats fun, doing damage is fun. Mobs have lots of hit points as a result, and so do the tanks.
As a tank myself, I love doping up on HP gear and charging into battle. I love the spam, rescuing people, managing my hit points, dieing to save frinds, and all that. Thats what being a warrior is all about. I don't think its broken at all.
Miax
[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 02-09-2002).]
First off, using Hildippie isn't the best example for saying that warriors only wear hp stuff now. His approach to equipping a fighter class has always been different. He doesn't go just hp, he goes hp AND ac. Basically, he's chosen to go pure tank, even when he was playing a paladin.
"gnomes/halflings tank better than trolls with hp gear on because of their insane agility, so i've been told and emailed logs of. can we get tanking xp? hehe"
Uh, trolls get even more insane agility then gnomes and halflings do. Troll agility = elf agility which is > gnome and halfling agility.
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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 02-09-2002).]
"gnomes/halflings tank better than trolls with hp gear on because of their insane agility, so i've been told and emailed logs of. can we get tanking xp? hehe"
Uh, trolls get even more insane agility then gnomes and halflings do. Troll agility = elf agility which is > gnome and halfling agility.
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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 02-09-2002).]
Miax:
If the general consensus is that everyone needs more HP to play the game, the game needs to be evaluated.
HP Equipment is a dominat option over everything else for everybody. In a game where balance is key, shouldn't this be evaluated?
You are right now balancing classes, maybe balancing eq so that there is no dominant option wouldn't be a bad idea?
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
If the general consensus is that everyone needs more HP to play the game, the game needs to be evaluated.
HP Equipment is a dominat option over everything else for everybody. In a game where balance is key, shouldn't this be evaluated?
You are right now balancing classes, maybe balancing eq so that there is no dominant option wouldn't be a bad idea?
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Ideas for making HP eq non-dominant:
1) Increase the efficacy of skills--a lot.
Reasoning: The reason why HP is the dominant option is that people are getting hit. They would be more willing to choose other equipment if they didn't think they needed 1200+ hp and skills will prevent them from getting hit.
Note that this would also allow level to count for less for the purpose of hitting: the 1h piercing skill would autocorrect for the level differance.
2) Allow AC to drop below -100.
Reasoning: This allows for more interesting equipment options. Will the fighter go for more HP or better AC? Now, once they get to -100 AC, the choice is ALWAYS HP--it is a completely dominant option while AC is dominated. This would change that.
3) Create more +max_agility eq and make agility count for more in dodging.
Reasoning: Combined with (2), this creates even more interesting choices for equipment selection.
4) Increase the visual effect of saving throws, perhaps even giving a different message when a saving throw is succeeded. An efficacy increase may or may not accompany this.
Reasoning: If people see that more spells are being dramatically reduced for wearing a little +vs_spells gear, that is a Good Thing (tm): it will encourage the use of other gear depending on circumstances. A slight enhancement in their effect would only serve to amplify the effect.
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
1) Increase the efficacy of skills--a lot.
Reasoning: The reason why HP is the dominant option is that people are getting hit. They would be more willing to choose other equipment if they didn't think they needed 1200+ hp and skills will prevent them from getting hit.
Note that this would also allow level to count for less for the purpose of hitting: the 1h piercing skill would autocorrect for the level differance.
2) Allow AC to drop below -100.
Reasoning: This allows for more interesting equipment options. Will the fighter go for more HP or better AC? Now, once they get to -100 AC, the choice is ALWAYS HP--it is a completely dominant option while AC is dominated. This would change that.
3) Create more +max_agility eq and make agility count for more in dodging.
Reasoning: Combined with (2), this creates even more interesting choices for equipment selection.
4) Increase the visual effect of saving throws, perhaps even giving a different message when a saving throw is succeeded. An efficacy increase may or may not accompany this.
Reasoning: If people see that more spells are being dramatically reduced for wearing a little +vs_spells gear, that is a Good Thing (tm): it will encourage the use of other gear depending on circumstances. A slight enhancement in their effect would only serve to amplify the effect.
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
From my original post:
Grintor, the diversity of hp eq was just dramatically smaller.
Jurdex had a ton of hps back then.
A lot of warriors also liked to play with their 50damroll. It always made me laugh. They were able to do so more back then because elementals tanked most of the time.
1200 hps, but you now have way bigger vits and vits from elemental embodiment and a lot more hp gear available..
The change has been cosmetic, but the theme has not changed.
Dornax
Jurdex
Grintor, the diversity of hp eq was just dramatically smaller.
Jurdex had a ton of hps back then.
A lot of warriors also liked to play with their 50damroll. It always made me laugh. They were able to do so more back then because elementals tanked most of the time.
1200 hps, but you now have way bigger vits and vits from elemental embodiment and a lot more hp gear available..
The change has been cosmetic, but the theme has not changed.
Dornax
Jurdex
In my previous post:
A lot of warriors also liked to play with their 50damroll. It always made me laugh. They were able to do so more back then because elementals tanked most of the time.
PC tanking of course calls for tanks to be buffer and last longer, after all. No more elementals.. cuz you just don't have anyone lasting for 30 mins and being ready to go in 2 mins at the drop of a hat.. Story of Gormal's sex life.
Dornax
Jurdex
A lot of warriors also liked to play with their 50damroll. It always made me laugh. They were able to do so more back then because elementals tanked most of the time.
PC tanking of course calls for tanks to be buffer and last longer, after all. No more elementals.. cuz you just don't have anyone lasting for 30 mins and being ready to go in 2 mins at the drop of a hat.. Story of Gormal's sex life.
Dornax
Jurdex
"2) Allow AC to drop below -100.
Reasoning: This allows for more interesting equipment options. Will the fighter go for more HP or better AC? Now, once they get to -100 AC, the choice is ALWAYS HP--it is a completely dominant option while AC is dominated. This would change that."
Actually, it already can with spells and possibly agility. It doesn't show up as lower then -100 on attributes though. How much effect this has is something I want to test with Hildippie sometime since he's pretty much the only one I know who bothers with enough AC to get below -100 with just one spell.
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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
Reasoning: This allows for more interesting equipment options. Will the fighter go for more HP or better AC? Now, once they get to -100 AC, the choice is ALWAYS HP--it is a completely dominant option while AC is dominated. This would change that."
Actually, it already can with spells and possibly agility. It doesn't show up as lower then -100 on attributes though. How much effect this has is something I want to test with Hildippie sometime since he's pretty much the only one I know who bothers with enough AC to get below -100 with just one spell.
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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
If rogues are meant to be hitters, perhaps some of warrior-only 'hitter' equipment could be changed to include rogues as well?
While I cannot think of any specific examples right now off the top of my head, there have been numerous occasions in which we get pure 'hitter' equipment that only the 'tank' warriors can use. I always found this confusing, as the vast majority of 'hitter' type equipment is restricted to thost that are now supposed to wear only 'hp' equipment.
Get my point?
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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
While I cannot think of any specific examples right now off the top of my head, there have been numerous occasions in which we get pure 'hitter' equipment that only the 'tank' warriors can use. I always found this confusing, as the vast majority of 'hitter' type equipment is restricted to thost that are now supposed to wear only 'hp' equipment.
Get my point?
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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
Miaximus already knows my standpoint on this issue...pretty much the same as his. Elementals were never intended to be the true meatshields, warriors were.
Although, I personally would like to see skills work a tad bit better so we don't have to wear full hps gear (since some leaders think hp gear = caster only *cough sapphire belt*). I think the biggest problem with going full hps is not being able to even hit a mob anymore...what warrior has 99 offense but misses something standing 2 feet away from him like he's a novice?
But all in all I think the way things are right now are the way they should've been to begin with...I just don't like feeling like a redheaded stepchild every time I tank Padashaw or Dracolich in MD.
Adding another of my 2 cents to the growing collection jar!
Deathmagnet
Although, I personally would like to see skills work a tad bit better so we don't have to wear full hps gear (since some leaders think hp gear = caster only *cough sapphire belt*). I think the biggest problem with going full hps is not being able to even hit a mob anymore...what warrior has 99 offense but misses something standing 2 feet away from him like he's a novice?
But all in all I think the way things are right now are the way they should've been to begin with...I just don't like feeling like a redheaded stepchild every time I tank Padashaw or Dracolich in MD.
Adding another of my 2 cents to the growing collection jar!
Deathmagnet
Staying alive is overrated.
"Sorry about that lag on heal staff guys. Uhh... guys?"
In all seriousness, though, I humbly propose that warriors get more base hps. How about 40hps to start with instead of 36, and pushing it from 16? hps/lvl to 20? (I'm not sure about the exact numbers, been a lil while since I've played a warrior.) This would lessen the need for warriors to look like mages.
"Sorry about that lag on heal staff guys. Uhh... guys?"
In all seriousness, though, I humbly propose that warriors get more base hps. How about 40hps to start with instead of 36, and pushing it from 16? hps/lvl to 20? (I'm not sure about the exact numbers, been a lil while since I've played a warrior.) This would lessen the need for warriors to look like mages.
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
There is a fine line that has to be followed. My warrior does both, but dies occasionally extra because of it.
I maintain a 22/35 1handed with 940 hps base, and -50 ac with armor spell.
It comes down to you play how you want to play. Period. You are not forced to wield a silver githyaki longsword, or strap on that quartz shield. Warriors lost alot of "their" hitter importance this wipe. They have just taken a stronger roll in defense.
I for one like to see me rescueing casters, it makes me feel good knowing I am doing MY JOB as a warrior. Come to grips with the fact that this is the job of the warrior. Their role has changed.
I maintain a 22/35 1handed with 940 hps base, and -50 ac with armor spell.
It comes down to you play how you want to play. Period. You are not forced to wield a silver githyaki longsword, or strap on that quartz shield. Warriors lost alot of "their" hitter importance this wipe. They have just taken a stronger roll in defense.
I for one like to see me rescueing casters, it makes me feel good knowing I am doing MY JOB as a warrior. Come to grips with the fact that this is the job of the warrior. Their role has changed.
Not really the point... nobody is arguing their role, what people are saying is that warriors look like half mages. Now barring two new overpowered quest items (it makes invasion eq look silly, let's be honest), there are no real +hp +dam items out there, leaving warriors looking like half mages. Which might warrant a slight +50 base hp for everyone? Hp rings alone, like previous wipes, aren't enough anymore with the current mob damage.
Just wondering.. didn't anyone notice a differance when defensive skills were upped a little bit a few weeks ago? From my view as a healer I sure as hell did. Sure our tanks still can get slapped around, but they can actually live without scales for a couple more rounds against a pack of high lvl nasties until full heals hit.
Giving warriors extra hitpoints would just result in them having more hps and wearing the same gear to have as many hps as they can. Frankly, the only way you're going to have warriors not wearing hp gear is if you make it have negative ac (even then they still might wear it) or just making it !warrior.
Yayaril
Yayaril
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- Sojourner
- Posts: 258
- Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Forster Keys, NSW Australia
- Contact:
When I get Jasix to lvl 50 and take on the tanking role again I will be trying to get as much HP eq as I can. I'll be wearing hit/dam (and hp rngs in zones) until then but once I have all the exp i need I will swap to pure hp and be a tank not a wannabe ranger. Sure there are times that you want your warriors to be stacking hit/dam (remeber those nasty crypt CRs when we never had enough wraith form hitters?)
The other day a ranger friend was talking about how it was unfair that the warriors got the amy rings.. I understand where he was coming from, ranger need hp too or they get nailed by area spells and tit rings just dont cut it..
My point is, if your a warrior I and many others EXPECT you to rescue/bash and rescue some more, most of us dont care at all for what your hit/dam is, we just want our warriors to have enough hp to live ong enough to rescue and get full healed by the clerics... Our rangers/rogues can try and impress us with record hit/dam stats but preferably not complain when a tank gets a hp item instead of them.
I get a bit ticked off when a warrior gets the amy ring over the casters.. But in the end the warrior needs the hp too but the hitters.. well they just hitters :P
The bottom line is Work out YOUR job and play to it. If your a wannabe hitter/warrior fine... but if you really wanna be a supertanker go hard on the HP eq and leave the damage to the invokers and ranger/rogues..
The other day a ranger friend was talking about how it was unfair that the warriors got the amy rings.. I understand where he was coming from, ranger need hp too or they get nailed by area spells and tit rings just dont cut it..
My point is, if your a warrior I and many others EXPECT you to rescue/bash and rescue some more, most of us dont care at all for what your hit/dam is, we just want our warriors to have enough hp to live ong enough to rescue and get full healed by the clerics... Our rangers/rogues can try and impress us with record hit/dam stats but preferably not complain when a tank gets a hp item instead of them.
I get a bit ticked off when a warrior gets the amy ring over the casters.. But in the end the warrior needs the hp too but the hitters.. well they just hitters :P
The bottom line is Work out YOUR job and play to it. If your a wannabe hitter/warrior fine... but if you really wanna be a supertanker go hard on the HP eq and leave the damage to the invokers and ranger/rogues..
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
Giving warriors extra hitpoints would just result in them having more hps and wearing the same gear to have as many hps as they can. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did consider that when I suggested it, yaya... but it's all about the total package, right? You just have to make it beneficial to them to wear other sorts of gear.
Giving warriors extra hitpoints would just result in them having more hps and wearing the same gear to have as many hps as they can. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did consider that when I suggested it, yaya... but it's all about the total package, right? You just have to make it beneficial to them to wear other sorts of gear.
Here is one. Give all races 1 more hp per level, and slash the hp rings in half. Net result will be +50 hp at 50th level, but
Spider 25hp Titanium 30hp +3svspell
Amey will be 35hp, Eldritch 40.
Assume wearing 2 hp rings
20th level 2 Scarlet =(25+25)50 hp
with change
20th level 2 Scarlet =(20+15+15) 50hp
(net 0hp)
20th level 2 Onyx (0/2?)=(20) 20hp +4d
(net -30hp +4d)
20th level S/O =(20+15) 35hp +2d
(net -15hp +2d)
40th level 2 Titanium =(55+55)110hp
with change
40th level 2 Titanium = (40+30+30) 100hp
(net -10 hp)
40th level 2 Gemstones = (40)40hp + 4ht 2d
(net -70 hp +4h/2d)
40th level 1T 1G = (40+30)70hp +2h 1d
(net -40 hp +2h/1d)
no significant difference to hp total if you wear hp rings, and a lowered significance if you go for h/d (keep in mind hp change now if you switch to hitter gear -110 for Titanium to Gemstone).
Now you get to choose between hitter rings and a few extra hp.
Do I wear 70hp from Ameys, or do I grab 4hit 2dam instead?
Normally I'm not for dg'ing any eq, but in essence, this is just placing on the PC what they already are doing.
The dg is not in hp's available to the player, but a shift in where they are getting it from. The big problem is that rings are necessary to achieve the hp level to survive. By changing the hp in this way, you give players more survivability if they choose to forgo the hp rings, while maintaining similar hp for those who wear the hp rings.
Where you will see the biggest difference is
A)a net loss if low level PC's are wearing high level zone rings
B)a net gain if high level PC's are wear no or low level zone hp rings.
This should mean a bit of work for Admin to refigure the hp for races, and a good bunch of work on ferreting (damn Carmicheal) out all the hp rings and resetting their values.
If anyone sees a flaw in my figuring, please say so. I am doing this on the fly, and may be way off, but I see it allowing some classes to vary things up while not dg'ing other classes. I have put estimates of where rings would need to be, so you may find a big loss somewhere that would need to be changed some(prolly in Eldtriches).
(Btw as I am right now I'd loose 1hp till I level again)
[This message has been edited by Salen (edited 02-11-2002).]
Spider 25hp Titanium 30hp +3svspell
Amey will be 35hp, Eldritch 40.
Assume wearing 2 hp rings
20th level 2 Scarlet =(25+25)50 hp
with change
20th level 2 Scarlet =(20+15+15) 50hp
(net 0hp)
20th level 2 Onyx (0/2?)=(20) 20hp +4d
(net -30hp +4d)
20th level S/O =(20+15) 35hp +2d
(net -15hp +2d)
40th level 2 Titanium =(55+55)110hp
with change
40th level 2 Titanium = (40+30+30) 100hp
(net -10 hp)
40th level 2 Gemstones = (40)40hp + 4ht 2d
(net -70 hp +4h/2d)
40th level 1T 1G = (40+30)70hp +2h 1d
(net -40 hp +2h/1d)
no significant difference to hp total if you wear hp rings, and a lowered significance if you go for h/d (keep in mind hp change now if you switch to hitter gear -110 for Titanium to Gemstone).
Now you get to choose between hitter rings and a few extra hp.
Do I wear 70hp from Ameys, or do I grab 4hit 2dam instead?
Normally I'm not for dg'ing any eq, but in essence, this is just placing on the PC what they already are doing.
The dg is not in hp's available to the player, but a shift in where they are getting it from. The big problem is that rings are necessary to achieve the hp level to survive. By changing the hp in this way, you give players more survivability if they choose to forgo the hp rings, while maintaining similar hp for those who wear the hp rings.
Where you will see the biggest difference is
A)a net loss if low level PC's are wearing high level zone rings
B)a net gain if high level PC's are wear no or low level zone hp rings.
This should mean a bit of work for Admin to refigure the hp for races, and a good bunch of work on ferreting (damn Carmicheal) out all the hp rings and resetting their values.
If anyone sees a flaw in my figuring, please say so. I am doing this on the fly, and may be way off, but I see it allowing some classes to vary things up while not dg'ing other classes. I have put estimates of where rings would need to be, so you may find a big loss somewhere that would need to be changed some(prolly in Eldtriches).
(Btw as I am right now I'd loose 1hp till I level again)
[This message has been edited by Salen (edited 02-11-2002).]
I have to agree, we need to attract attention to a wider variety of eq. I don't begrudge the tanks whatever they need to survive, but I will contend as someone with a lot of experience playing HP eq dependant classes that this is insanely frustrating.
The whole concept of physical damage being prized created a healthy split of desired stats over a wide range. Casters worked for 600-800 hp while hitters worked for 700-1000 and even then amethyst rings usually had half the bids of brass splits. Now people bid for other things simply because they don't want to have 1/8 chances for an item.
This would seem to indicate we need to make more items for tanks that have hp on them and have other good stats for warriors... and make some of the current warrior only hitndam eq either rogue friendly or give it hp for some of the damage stats.
having zones that require tanks with 1200hp casters with 800 hp leaves rogues and rangers so screwed. We are there to do damage, but to do damage we need to give up survival. Even elf invokers can get to 650 hp and still do all the damage they could if they were 450hp.
Gotta love those rich get richer HP economics.
Sobu
The whole concept of physical damage being prized created a healthy split of desired stats over a wide range. Casters worked for 600-800 hp while hitters worked for 700-1000 and even then amethyst rings usually had half the bids of brass splits. Now people bid for other things simply because they don't want to have 1/8 chances for an item.
This would seem to indicate we need to make more items for tanks that have hp on them and have other good stats for warriors... and make some of the current warrior only hitndam eq either rogue friendly or give it hp for some of the damage stats.
having zones that require tanks with 1200hp casters with 800 hp leaves rogues and rangers so screwed. We are there to do damage, but to do damage we need to give up survival. Even elf invokers can get to 650 hp and still do all the damage they could if they were 450hp.
Gotta love those rich get richer HP economics.
Sobu
The problem with the idea of upgrading tanking skills so that they won't need to wear so many pieces of hp gear is that some tanks will continue to wear the hp gear, and have better tanking skills, making things far too easy. Granted, you could make the gear !warrior, but what's really wrong with the way it is today? If you want to do more than be a meatshield, play a different class. Not every class can do everything.
Glorishan
Glorishan
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- Sojourner
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Glorishan:
The problem is twofold:
1) HP being dominant equipment is a problem. If everything else is secondary, then in time HP eq is what zone makers are going to be putting in their zones as lures and we will suffer an overabundance.
2) If *everyone* needs hp eq, from warriors on down, it makes it the most valuable commodity in the game and a lot of traditionally caster equipment is going to get funneled to warriors. Meanwhile casters aren't *ever* going to don anything that even vaguely looks like warrior eq.
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
The problem is twofold:
1) HP being dominant equipment is a problem. If everything else is secondary, then in time HP eq is what zone makers are going to be putting in their zones as lures and we will suffer an overabundance.
2) If *everyone* needs hp eq, from warriors on down, it makes it the most valuable commodity in the game and a lot of traditionally caster equipment is going to get funneled to warriors. Meanwhile casters aren't *ever* going to don anything that even vaguely looks like warrior eq.
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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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- Sojourner
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- Location: USA
You did mention the downgrading of rings?
Well what about all the other body locations?
Why just downgrade rings? Why not bracelets? Neck, head, arms etc. etc...
To make AC more favorable for warriors, could always go into the coding and have AC absorb some of the damage, instead of just determining hit/miss. Probably be a mess. But is doable.
Well what about all the other body locations?
Why just downgrade rings? Why not bracelets? Neck, head, arms etc. etc...
To make AC more favorable for warriors, could always go into the coding and have AC absorb some of the damage, instead of just determining hit/miss. Probably be a mess. But is doable.
HP gear is already impossible to get for most casters and is needed sorely......I have yet to see a vault group where nebbies don't have like 3-6 bids....
what about +stat items? Like an ac5 +20 shieldblock skill ring?
A warrior will possibly forgo that tit ring's 55 hp and leave it for us casters if he can actually block some of those 300+ hp rounds more often...would take tweeking, but noone ever said they had to be easy to get.....
It'd still allow the 40+ warriors a chance to survive as tank while still die to some nasty rounds with lotsa mobs. Kinda of a personal trade off them for every warrior and still leave them in the defensive roles.
what about +stat items? Like an ac5 +20 shieldblock skill ring?
A warrior will possibly forgo that tit ring's 55 hp and leave it for us casters if he can actually block some of those 300+ hp rounds more often...would take tweeking, but noone ever said they had to be easy to get.....
It'd still allow the 40+ warriors a chance to survive as tank while still die to some nasty rounds with lotsa mobs. Kinda of a personal trade off them for every warrior and still leave them in the defensive roles.
Gyrx
Bah it's hitter gear. Like I know what it does. You get the general idea though. And yes I know its not quite 1/2 on hp rings.
Did figure out what was wrong with the math though.
Would have to be a straight reduction on higher level rings (Spider-Eldritch) of 25 hp or casters get hurt out of the deal, and a 10-15 on lower rings (up to Electrum or so).
This would leave Electurm at 15-20, Spider at 25,Titanium & Singed at 30, Amey at 40/45 (didn't have a warrior around to ask them what it does). Casters wouldn't make the difference up till 50, but they might actually get an Amey before then too.
Anyway the Admin could figure out the break point to make the rings equal for who should be using them. Will it be fair to the Amey wearing level 10 Necro? No. But then I think having Amey's at 10 is enough of a boost to not worry much about it. Will it boost the level 40 Conji who still has electrum and scarlet rings? Yep it sure will, till they trade them off for bigger rings.
The reason I mention rings is that is the highest hp eq in the game. That is also the biggest point of contention between Warrior/Not Warrior eq (polka and roots belt exceptions, I know).
By lowering the eq stats and raising the PC hp's you get no gain situation for casters, but do get some gain for Hitters & Tanks. I don't count 10 hp a major problem, and with the fix to a straight 25 on high end rings there shouldn't be a difference in the end.
The advantage for casters would be this, the rogue/ranger/warrior might just wear hitter rings over hp rings, because the hp improvement isn't enough to make up for the h/d loss.
The advantage for Warriors & Rogues is giving them a legitimate choice between some hp or some hit/dam, unlike now where the choice is huge hp or some hit/dam.
Will they wear hp rings? Some still will, some won't.
Bah it's hitter gear. Like I know what it does. You get the general idea though. And yes I know its not quite 1/2 on hp rings.
Did figure out what was wrong with the math though.
Would have to be a straight reduction on higher level rings (Spider-Eldritch) of 25 hp or casters get hurt out of the deal, and a 10-15 on lower rings (up to Electrum or so).
This would leave Electurm at 15-20, Spider at 25,Titanium & Singed at 30, Amey at 40/45 (didn't have a warrior around to ask them what it does). Casters wouldn't make the difference up till 50, but they might actually get an Amey before then too.
Anyway the Admin could figure out the break point to make the rings equal for who should be using them. Will it be fair to the Amey wearing level 10 Necro? No. But then I think having Amey's at 10 is enough of a boost to not worry much about it. Will it boost the level 40 Conji who still has electrum and scarlet rings? Yep it sure will, till they trade them off for bigger rings.
The reason I mention rings is that is the highest hp eq in the game. That is also the biggest point of contention between Warrior/Not Warrior eq (polka and roots belt exceptions, I know).
By lowering the eq stats and raising the PC hp's you get no gain situation for casters, but do get some gain for Hitters & Tanks. I don't count 10 hp a major problem, and with the fix to a straight 25 on high end rings there shouldn't be a difference in the end.
The advantage for casters would be this, the rogue/ranger/warrior might just wear hitter rings over hp rings, because the hp improvement isn't enough to make up for the h/d loss.
The advantage for Warriors & Rogues is giving them a legitimate choice between some hp or some hit/dam, unlike now where the choice is huge hp or some hit/dam.
Will they wear hp rings? Some still will, some won't.
Exactly Magurk! =) good call indeed. I've been saying that for a while now too. . . .AC, , agility, etc, needs to reduce the damage done by a blow, not solely determine if it hits or not. This gives much more flexibility for AC, hps, zone writers, etc.
Also, please note that if you want to be a 'hitter' don't play a ranger or rogue. You'll need to beef up hugely on hp eq to survive area spells, so you'll be the same hit/dam as a warrior, an extra attack and 300 hps poorer after the deal =)
if you want to play a 'hitter' roll an antipaladin.
If you wanna play a hitter roll up a warrior and do nothing but dual wield and wear hit /dam eq. 4 attacks per round +many more hps than a hitter class. Sure you lose one attack .. . .but you can dual things like ebony, engulfed, rippling, firebrand, etc etc. your hit/dam with proc's going off all the time will make you a true force to reckon with. and guess what? you're going to live through those areas, be able to tank if needed and do all the super things a warrior can do in a pinch. Just remember, tell your friends "IM NOT A WARRIOR! IM A HITTER!" roar! hehehe
lost
Also, please note that if you want to be a 'hitter' don't play a ranger or rogue. You'll need to beef up hugely on hp eq to survive area spells, so you'll be the same hit/dam as a warrior, an extra attack and 300 hps poorer after the deal =)
if you want to play a 'hitter' roll an antipaladin.
If you wanna play a hitter roll up a warrior and do nothing but dual wield and wear hit /dam eq. 4 attacks per round +many more hps than a hitter class. Sure you lose one attack .. . .but you can dual things like ebony, engulfed, rippling, firebrand, etc etc. your hit/dam with proc's going off all the time will make you a true force to reckon with. and guess what? you're going to live through those areas, be able to tank if needed and do all the super things a warrior can do in a pinch. Just remember, tell your friends "IM NOT A WARRIOR! IM A HITTER!" roar! hehehe
lost
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- Sojourner
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*nods* Iyachtu.
As a cleric I've even noticed the differance in damage from my normal crappy AC5 or so, to when I have bark and stuff to take it to around -35. Don't you warrior types see damage drop as you get lower ac? Hell, I even saw it on warrior alt. I've seen some crossover points where its like damage 'notches' up or down.. thats why I'm trying not to hose my AC as I get +hp eq.
Just think this thread is kinda silly.. shrug.
[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 02-12-2002).]
As a cleric I've even noticed the differance in damage from my normal crappy AC5 or so, to when I have bark and stuff to take it to around -35. Don't you warrior types see damage drop as you get lower ac? Hell, I even saw it on warrior alt. I've seen some crossover points where its like damage 'notches' up or down.. thats why I'm trying not to hose my AC as I get +hp eq.
Just think this thread is kinda silly.. shrug.
[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 02-12-2002).]
Nokie did a test!
With -20 AC: The undead dracolich beat the crap out of me.
With -50 AC: The undead dracolich beat the crap out of me.
With -100 AC: The undead dracolich beat the crap out of me.
Okie!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>I would like to see someone test damage taken at different ac levels against a particular mob and post their results. Someone who has more time on their hands than me of course. :)
Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
With -20 AC: The undead dracolich beat the crap out of me.
With -50 AC: The undead dracolich beat the crap out of me.
With -100 AC: The undead dracolich beat the crap out of me.
Okie!
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>I would like to see someone test damage taken at different ac levels against a particular mob and post their results. Someone who has more time on their hands than me of course. :)
Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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